Turkish Divisions 1914-18

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
stevebecker
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Post by stevebecker » 28 Sep 2006 03:45

Peter,

I am trying to ID what Regt's were in what divisions during the war particuarly in the Palestine area, there appear to move around some what, possibly due to the disbanding of divisions.

Tosun, who has been a great help mentioned that the 126th Regt (9th Div) was at Amman in March 1918 from the cucasus area but if the 9th Div had been disband before that date who was it with after that disbandment and what Div was it attached to at Amman. The local Div there was the 48th Div but so far its Regt's have not been found other then the 150th Regt, can you add any more to the mix.

Cheers

S.B

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 28 Sep 2006 04:05

Steve,

I suggest you PM our member Altay who has this website:

http://www.turkeyswar.com/

He might be able to help.

Regards
Peter

57th Regiment
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Post by 57th Regiment » 03 Oct 2006 18:01

Peter thanks for the information.

My grandmother's father (Resit Yasar) had fought in balkan wars, Caucasian Front during WWI and joined the Sarikamis Action. He survived there and was taken prisoner by the russians. He came back to Anatolia and he fought in Turkish Independence War. He served 14 years as a soldier (Balkan Wars, WW1, Turkish Independence War)

My mother didn't see her grandfather. All we know about him is what my gradmother told me. I don't know the details. But I will ask my older relatives who may know much more detail.

Good Bye.

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 03 Oct 2006 22:04

We, Turks, are all soldiers of 57th Regiment, and 97th Regiment.(Regiment of my Grandfather) 42th Regiment (Regiment of my Father), and 1st Wire Regiment (My Regiment)

Dear Steve
I am very in hurry these days. I could't go to library. Please give me time.

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pablo287
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Post by pablo287 » 04 Oct 2006 06:18

Peter,

"La Guerre turque dans la Grand Guerre," by Larcher has a very detailed breakdown of which divisions were in which theater and campaign.

It's a bit hard to find, but you can run by a copy every once in awhile. I'd scan the pages for you, but unfortunately my copy is in storage for the next few months.

Paul

stevebecker
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Post by stevebecker » 07 Oct 2006 02:36

Mates,

Many thanks for any help here on this.

No hurry with the details as this charpter in my book on this and other battles during early 1918 can wait some months more.

Thanks for your assistance

S.B

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jwsleser
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Post by jwsleser » 01 Nov 2006 15:09

Steve

Exactly what information are you looking for? I have been compling a list of Ottoman units for several years and it has been challenging to say the least. An accurate OB of 3rd Gaza is pretty straight forward. Meggido is a little shakier as none of the Turkish sources provide a definitive OB to the regimental level. Hence one must sort through the operations around Jerusalem and up past Jaffa to determine whether the Ottoman divisions had any sigificant changes. I haven't done much on this as of yet: on my to-do list.

RE: 126th Regiment. This regiment was part of the 11th Division, not the 9th Division (Birinci Dünya Harbi'nde Turk harbi: Kafkas Cephesi, 2nci Ordu Harekâti 1916-1918). The 9th Division was disbanded during the reorganization of the 3rd Army that created the Kalfas units. The 11th Division was transfered to Palestine in the winter of 1917-18. I have been trying to track the regiments of this division (33rd, 126th, 127th Regiments) in Palestine as the 126th serving on the Trans-Jordan area indicates the division was changed.

RE: 48th Division. This division had the 150th, 151st, and 152nd Regiment in the Caucasus. The division was transfer to Palestine in the summer of 1917 and assigned to the VIII Army Corps as part of the 4th Army. The Turkish official (Sina-Filistin 2 kisim) only addresses this division in passing and doesn't provide many details. While the division headquarters was at Amman, it is likely the regiments were spread southwards covering the rail line. Hence the only regiment specifically mentioned in the Trans-Jordan fights is the 150th Regiment. It is likely the 126th was attached (still looking for the definitive statement in the official) as the remaining two regiments were committed on the rail line. The official covering the Hicaz-Yemen-Asir doesn't cover this division, although the 4th Army was responsible for these fronts in late 1917-1918. However, I haven't spent much time looking through that volume at this time.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
Last edited by jwsleser on 01 Nov 2006 15:46, edited 1 time in total.

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jwsleser
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Post by jwsleser » 01 Nov 2006 15:46

Peter

I have started to review your list of divisions and will offer more as I have time. A quick comment.

2nd Kalfas Cavalry Brigade. This was not a division. The 2nd Regular Cavalry Division underwent a similar down-sizing as the infantry formations in 1916. The 3rd Reserve Cavalry Division was disbanded as part of this reorganization.

49th and 49th Kaflas Division. I am uncertain about this. The 49th Division has been difficult to pin down. A major problem in research is the Turkish officials don't address the forces in Thrace in any detail. This division has been on my to-do list but I haven't yet done the research. I have recently obtained a copy of the official covering the 2nd Army, so I am in a better position to track this issue down. I have never seen a numbered division and Kalfas division with the same number co-exist, hence I feel more research is needed. I am assuming your source is Erickson?

The Hicaz Kuvvei Seferiyesi. From what I have scanned, I believe this unit was formed from the disbanded 22nd Division (I think that is the unit, I don't have my notes handy). I plan to track the formation of this unit and the two Kuvvei Murettebe to see if I can sort out their origins. I have some detailed info on these units, they just haven't made it to the top of the list.

Jeff
Last edited by jwsleser on 04 Nov 2006 04:23, edited 1 time in total.

stevebecker
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Post by stevebecker » 02 Nov 2006 00:32

Mate,

Thanks so much for your imput.

The problem I am working on now is the Turkish Counter attack on the Jordan in April 1918.

From the Turkish Map given to me by Tosun.

The 4th Army with the 8th Corps with the 48th Div and what appears to but a mixed Div moved down to attack the Goraniye Bridgehead and Cav Regts 6, 7 and 8 moved around the area.

The British accounts tell that the 48th Div attacked across the Jordan at El Musallabe held by the Camel Bde (Hecin) but the map clearly shows this attack was by the Turkish 20th Corps 7th Army not the 48th Div 8th Corps.

Can you give me an idea of what units took part in this attack against the Hecin Bde at Musallabe around 10th April 1918.

Also can give tell me what Cav Regt's made up the 3rd Cav Div, the 6th, 7th and 8th Cav Regt's are shown were there more?

Cheers

S.B

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jwsleser
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Post by jwsleser » 02 Nov 2006 05:10

S.B.

I assume the map Tosun provided was Kroki 49.

The units that attacked the Camel Brigade on 9-10 April were the 145th Regiment, the 163rd Regiment and the 8th Cavalry Regiment. I haven’t been able to identify the origins of the 145th Regiment. It was originally assigned to the 46th Division. This division arrived in Palestine in March 1918, so it is likely the regiment was pulled from it while it was arriving. The 163rd is part of the 53rd Division (XX Corps) and the 8th Cavalry was detached from the 3rd Cavalry Division.

The 48th Division had following units under its command during the battle: 23rd Regiment, 191st Regiment, and the 48th Artillery Regiment. The Lütfü Mürettep Division had the 152nd Regiment, one battalion of the 146th Regiment, a Mule cavalry Regiment, and an artillery battalion.

The 3rd Cavalry Division had only three regiments: 6th Cavalry, 7th Cavalry, and 8th Cavalry, plus a field battery.

Jeff

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Post by stevebecker » 02 Nov 2006 06:12

Jeff,

Yes mate thanks so much.

Are you aware of the names of the Turkish officers commanding of the 145th, 163rd and the 8th Cav Regt's.

And or the commanding officer of the operation and if it was the 20th Corps or the 53rd Div commander and his or their name.

Are you aware of any accounts of this operation such as which Regt's attacked where?

Also mate if you can what Artillery units suported the attack like the 14th Artillery Regt 53rd Div.

What I liked about your info is the Camel (Hecin) Bdes old mates from 2nd Gaza April 1917 were the 53rd Div under Col Refet Bey, there holding the line in particular the Tank Redoubt by the 165th Regt led to the Camel Bdes highest losses, Now the boot was on the other foot with the 163rd Regt attacking the Camel Bde.

Tosun mentioned that after the 2nd Gaza battle the 165th Regt was disbanded and the 74th Regt replaced them in the 53rd Div, what were the two other Regt's (74th and 161st Regts) doing during the Musellebe battle in April 1918?

Thanks

Cheers

S.B

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 02 Nov 2006 08:37

jwsleser wrote:Peter

I have started to review your list of divisions and will offer more as I have time. A quick comment.

2nd Kalfas Cavalry Brigade. This was not a division. The 2nd Regular Cavalry Division underwent a similar down-sizing as the infantry formations in 1916. The 3rd Reserve Division was disbanded as part of this reorganization.

49th and 49th Kaflas Division. I am uncertain about this. The 49th Division has been difficult to pin down. A major problem in research is the Turkish officials don't address the forces in Thrace in any detail. This division has been on my to-do list but I haven't yet done the research. I have recently obtained a copy of the official covering the 2nd Army, so I am in a better position to track this issue down. I have never seen a numbered division and Kalfas division with the same number co-exist, hence I feel more research is needed. I am assuming your source is Erickson?

The Hicaz Kuvvei Seferiyesi. From what I have scanned, I believe this unit was formed from the disbanded 22nd Division (I think that is the unit, I don't have my notes handy). I plan to track the formation of this unit and the two Kuvvei Murettebe to see if I can sort out their origins. I have some detailed info on these units, they just haven't made it to the top of the list.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff.Basically I've used Erickson but obviously this is only a rough approach.Any further input would be most welcome.

Regards
Peter

domster
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Post by domster » 02 Nov 2006 11:50

Hi Steve

I know you from the Great War forum (just joined this one). I have been doing research on Ottoman units aspart of my interest in the Arab revolt (I am trying to sort units on the Hejaz railway and in Jordan). I have been ploughing my way through the allied intelligence summaries at Kew. there is quite a bit of info. but it should probably be treated with care. I now have a digital camera and plan to go back and photograph some very good maps and estimte tables for Ottoman forces.

I have some bits and pieces from my notes about 48th div. as they ran up against arab forces at Tafileh:

January 1918

Battle of Tafileh: A Turkish temporary regiment, commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Hamid Fakhri Bey, acting G.O.C. 48th Division, and composed of 3/151 [Regiment], 1/152 [Regiment], a murettab battalion of 150, with a company of gendarmes, a detachment of 100 cavalry, two Austrian quick-firing mountain guns, and twenty-three machine guns, was railed to Kalaat el-Hasa station on January 19, and left Kerak on January 23 to retake Tafila. [This report was written by T E Lawrence, and the force was beaten at Tafileh with Fakhri Bey being killed].

March 1918

11th Division
126th Regiment & another unidentified battalion at Amman, 1800 rifles, 100 sabres, 36 machines guns.[126th Regiment took part in Tafileh operation March 1918]

48th Division
1/151st Regiment in the Kerak area [probably the Kerak garrison], 150 rifles, 4 machine guns. [present at Tafileh operation March 1918]
2 & 3/150 Regiment Guarding railway, 850 rifles, 100 sabres, 24 machine guns.
1/148th Regiment at Kutrani, 400 rifles, 4 machine guns
German Battalion [703rd Infantry Battalion?] 1000, rifles, 18 machine guns. [present at Tafileh operation March 1918]
7th Cavalry Regiment Kerak area, 400 sabres, 8 machine guns. [present at Tafileh operation March 1918 with 1 battery of artillery]
Mule Mounted Infantry unit [unidentified] Jauf el-Dervish 500 rifles, 4 machine guns.[present at Tafileh operation March 1918 with 2 guns Possibly from the 1st Composite Force at Ma’an.]
48th Artillery Regiment 2 batteries present at Tafileh operation March 1918)

Tafileh operation [this was when the Ottomans de-trained units at Qalat al-Hasa and Jurf el-Darwish and drove Arabs from Tafileh], following units also listed:
1/146th Regiment
1 German Battery [Possibly either the the assault gun unit of 703rd Infantry Battalion or a unit of the 701st Artillery detachment]
2 mountain batteries
1 heavy gun.

Other units mentioned
Machine gun company of 1/123rd Regiment in the Tafileh area 7/3/1918

April 1918

48th Division

20/4/1918 POW states the 48th Division consists of 23rd, 2/24th and 148th Regiments and that the 191st Regiment is attached.

Estimate

1 & 3/152nd Regiment in the el-Kutrani area, 425 rifles, 12 machine guns.
2 & 3/150th Regiment Amman and guarding railway, 300 rifles, 12 machine guns
23rd Regiment Amman? (from 8th Division arrived Amman 1/4/1918)
2/24th Regiment Amman? (from 8th Division arrived Amman 1/4/1918)
191st Regiment: 2/191st Regiment virtually destroyed at Salt, reforming at Amman. POW reports regiment in the Amman area 31/3/1918. POW 20/4/1918 reports 191st Regiment attached to 48th Division
703rd German Infantry Battalion moving west from Amman 5/4/1918, moving west from Salt 12/4/1918. 500 rifles, 25 sabres, 8 machine guns, 20 automatic rifles.
7th Cavalry Regiment 4 squadrons of 120 men each, a transport company of 60 men, a battery of 4 x 7.5cm mountain guns with 150 men.

Following units mentioned at various dates:
145th Regiment 31/3/1918 POW reports it north of Salt
143rd Regiment part of 46th Division POW reports it north of Salt.
1/146th Regiment POW reports it in the Amman-Salt area 1/4/1918.
4th Railway Battalion POW reports part of it in the Amman area 1/4/1918
3rd Railway Battalion POW reports it in the Amman area 1/4/1918
3rd Cavalry Division POW of the 2/145th Regiment reports Division near Salt on 29/3/1918. Also reports 145th Regiment is under orders of 3rd Cavalry Division.

Its a bit bitty but I'll post any other info. as I come across it. Hope this helps. if anybody has info. on Ottoman units in southern Jordan or on the Hejaz railway south of Amman I would be grateful to receive it. Info. in square brackets are my comments.

Cheers
Dominic

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stevebecker
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Post by stevebecker » 04 Nov 2006 02:09

Mate,

Thanks for that it gives me some idea of what the different formations were up to.

I'll go threw my lists to check out the units.

Cheers

S.B

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jwsleser
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Post by jwsleser » 04 Nov 2006 04:22

S.B.

I can't provide much more. This attack is covered in a single paragraph in the official. I tried going back earlier in the volume to see if I could answer some of your questions, but couldn't pin down the commander's names with any certainty.

It states that the XX Corps ordered a demonstration attack. As the two main units involved (145th Regiment and 8th Cavalry Regiment) were not part of the 53rd Division, it is unlikely the division was involved. My assumption is that XX Corps coordinated the effort. No artillery units are mentioned. The 145th attacked from the north, while the 8th Cavalry attacked from the east. 163rd Regiment was passed through but not fully committed. I assume the 163rd Regiment passed through the 8th Cavalry, as it is unlikely a single cavalry regiment could have gained the results detailed in the British official. This is only conjecture at this time.

domster

Some very nice work. It must be enjoyable to work with primary sources. I will be interested in further research using the intell repports. Thank you for the information.

Jeff

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