Turkish troops in Galizia and Dobrogea

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
trickcyclist
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Turkish flame throwers in Galicia

#16

Post by trickcyclist » 18 Sep 2005, 22:56

waffen_für _alle:

Thank you for your answer.

Bob Lembke is right; the Erickson book says that the Germans gave the Turks 30 flame throwers in total. It does not say how many were given to the Turks in Galicia.

Your information is very interesting. Would it be possible for you to post all the publishing data about the book that mentions the 2 flame throwers? That includes title, author, publisher, publishing place, publishing date, and page number for the flame thrower information?

I would really appreciate it.

Thanks again.

TC

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3.Jäger Rgt.
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#17

Post by 3.Jäger Rgt. » 19 Sep 2005, 06:23

All,

Here is the patch that I was speaking about. Any thoughts are welcome.

Chip
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#18

Post by 3.Jäger Rgt. » 19 Sep 2005, 06:24

And the front.
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Mehmet Fatih
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Re: Turkish Flame Throwers

#19

Post by Mehmet Fatih » 19 Sep 2005, 15:54

bob lembke wrote:Merhaba, waffer_für_alle;

From memory, Erikson, in the back of his book, gave a list of the total aid that the Germans sent the Turks during the war, a simple list without any mention of where they were sent, and he listed that the Turkish Army was given 30 flame throwers, about the number needed for a flame company, plus a few spares. Less would not make much sense.

A friend has a very interesting photo that shows a flame thrower team wearing the Turkish-style steel helmets that the Germans made for the Turkish Army. They were training in a trench at a training facility in Galicia. They must be Turks, and the picture does show that the Turks did train with these devices. The German flame troops periodically sent flame troops to the Austro-Hungarian front to train allied troops and perhaps conduct a few attacks, as did storm trooper units based in France.

I am not optimistic about finding much about these Turkish flame throwers. I have even thought of learning a very small relevant Turkish vocabilary, and then skim through the Turkish sources to try to find references to these weapons, and then have someone translate it for me. I have a friend who is a native Turkish speaker, but I cannot expect him to read several books for me. I am also interested in some things about the Gallipoli Campaign (in pareticular the German volunteer Pioniere (pioneer) company that fought there; my father was in it), so I could try to "kill two birds with one stone". I do understand how difficult Turkish is. My wife tried to start learning it recently, and quickly switched to Arabic. I may know ten words, plus some Arabic that is also used in Turkish.

Bob Lembke
Merhaba Bob Lembke,

I know that your father had fought in Gallipoli from your old posts.Didn't he also helped the Turkish army during the war of independence?But i may remember wrong.
I would like to see that photo of Turkish flame-thrower team.And as Galicia was the only place where Turks and Germans fought together in high numbers,(There were German officers in other Ottoman battlefields but there were no big scaled combined operations.) probably it is right that Germany gave the highest amount of equipment(Including those 30 flamethrowers) in Galicia.Last night i searched in the book of Turkish chief of staff's,but there was no mention of flame-throwers in details of 15th Corps operations.It was only mentioned in Logistic details of operations under the title of German aid, and it is what i have written."2 flame throwers were given to 15th Corps in Galicia." There is no further info.
It is very sad that you cant make your Turkish books translated.Listen, if you need help with translation, i would help by any means.Just pm me about it.You can e-mail me the doc and get the english translation.

And trickcyclist,

As i use a public computer here and dont have the books with me(they are all in my dorm room), i cant send the info right now.I can send the info you want in the evening.(I mean evening in Turkish time.It is 16:50 right now.)It is no problem.

Regards

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Mehmet Fatih
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#20

Post by Mehmet Fatih » 19 Sep 2005, 18:28

Hello trickcyclist,

The info about the 2 flame throwers is given on page 61.

The name of the book is ; Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi-Avrupa Cepheleri(Ozet)
If we roughly translate it; Turkish War in World War 1-European Fronts(Summary)
The publisher is; Genelkurmay Askeri Tarih ve Stratejik Etud Baskanligi
If we roughly translate it; Turkish General Staff Military History and Strategic Studies Unit
The author is; Military historian Gulhan Barlas.But in fact Barlas only prepared and edited the book because this book is consisted of 3 books published in 1967 by the same publisher.The books are; Galicia by Retired Infantry Colonel Cihat Akkanoglu, Romania by Retired Infantry Colonel Fikri Gulec,Macedonia by Retired Artillery Colonel Fazli Karlidag and Retired Staff Colonel Kani Ciner. But as i say this book is a unity of these three books.
The book i have is published in Turkish General Staff printing office in Ankara/Turkiye in year 1996.
ISBN number is 975-409-074-2.

Regards
Last edited by Mehmet Fatih on 20 Sep 2005, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Source

#21

Post by bob lembke » 19 Sep 2005, 19:53

Mehraba, waffen_für_alle;

Many thanks for the information that you posted for trick cyclist.

From what you say the one-volume book is not just a re-printing of the three volumes, but somewhat condenses or abbreviates the original three books. If this is true, there might be some chance that the original book on Galicia might have some detail that the one volume book does not have. Is this correct?

I would assume that the one volume book that you referred to was published in Ankara, not Istanbul.

Do you have the date of publication of the one-volume book?

I am sorry to bother you with all the details but this information will give us a complete formal citation for the book, if trick cyclist or myself formally cite your information/translation. This area of study is so hard for us over here. I was at a party last night, and my wife was telling someone how she started working on Turkish for a few weeks earlier this year, and then switched over to study Arabic, as being (relatively) easier.

Yes, my father was able to help a little bit in the War of Independence. In 1922 or 1923 he was sitting in a Berlin restaurant, and he noticed two men sitting near him who, by their bearing, seemed to be Turkish officers, despite civilian clothes. He let his suit jacket open so that they could see the P 08 that he was wearing under his jacket. They came over and spoke to him and asked if he had more of them. As it was, my father had 33 P 08's with 10 cm and 25 cm barrels, and he sold them to the Turkish officers. He had liked the Turks a great deal and admired their bravery and spirit, and was happy to help; the Turks were, I imagine, having a lot of trouble obtaining arms to defend themselves from the Greeks.

Bob Lembke

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#22

Post by trickcyclist » 19 Sep 2005, 23:33

waffen_für _alle:

Thank you again for your answer. I appreciate your help.

A couple of years ago, I contacted Mr. Erickson, the author of Ordered to Die, to ask him about his Turkish sources, but he said that he didn't take detailed notes, so he couldn't help me. I was VERY disappointed. However, you've given me the information I wanted, so thank you.

According to Erickson, the Turkish 15 Army Corps formed two assault companies in Galicia. You say that the Germans also gave them two flame throwers. If they were the small German flamethrowers (Kleif), this means weapons for one Kleiftrupp or "small flame-thrower squad." Each flame-thrower had a crew of three, plus one NCO in command.

It seems that the Germans gave the Turks the flame-throwers for training purposes, because if they were to be used for combat, the Germans would have supplied at least three flame-throwers, one to be held in reserve.

Thanks again for your help.

TC

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#23

Post by Mehmet Fatih » 20 Sep 2005, 13:53

Hello Bob Lembke and trickcyclist,

You are welcome friends.It is a pleasure for me to help you.
First of all, i must correct a translation mistake i made about the details of the book.I said that the books had been published by Turkish Chief of Staff.I didn't translate the Turkish word "Genelkurmay" as Turkish General Staff.I translated it as Turkish Chief of Staff.I am sorry about that mistake.I have corrected my previous post.

Bob, it is true that the book i have(the book i found about 2 flamethrowers) is a summary of the first 3 books which were published in 1967.Colonel Cihat Akkanoglu's book on Galicia, which was published in 1967, probably gives more detailed information about the equipment.So you are right.Turkish General Staff(TGS) printing office is in Ankara so all of the TGS publications are printed there.I dont have the exact date of publication.Because, the exact publication date of TGS books are never writen in the book.Only the year is written and it is 1967.Also i will try to find the book.But would be a miracle if i find it.Cause it is an old publication.I will give a try.I will get in contact with my friends in Ankara.TGS publications are never bought by ordinary people.Only military historians and some officers buy them and keep them in their library.So it is really hard to find the books(especially the old ones) in second hand book shops.Anyway, i will give try in Ankara.

Trickcyclist, it is really disappointing that he didn't take notes.I have read the Turkish translation of Ericksonn's Ordered to Die.There is a reference list in the end of the book.In fact most of his sources were TGS books, but i wonder where he found that info about 30 flamethrowers.Anyway, i am really pleased to help.

Regards

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Peter H
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#24

Post by Peter H » 20 Sep 2005, 15:03

According to Ludendorff's memoirs he favoured moving the Turkish XV Corps to the Western Front in 1918.However they were sent home to Turkey and were wasted as a military asset in the advance "towards the coveted oilfields" of the Caucasus.

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#25

Post by seljuk » 20 Sep 2005, 16:46

bob lembke, I think its hard to find how many flame throwers given to Turks. Also we have lots of pictures about gallipoli and galicia. I've never seen flame throwers. We know that it was very powerful and expensive. I think "2" is true number.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/flamethrowers.htm
http://www.gallipoli1915.org/08yetkin.i ... alicya.htm

some photos...

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by seljuk on 20 Sep 2005, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter H
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#26

Post by Peter H » 20 Sep 2005, 16:47

Source please.

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#27

Post by bob lembke » 20 Sep 2005, 19:29

Merhaba, waffen_für_alle;

The year of publication, 1967, is all we need for a complete scholarly citation. Tesekkür ederim!

It is quite possible that Erickson got his extensive list of the quantities of weapons supplied to the Turkish Army from a German source, possibly from the series of histories Weltkrieg 1914-1918. I have not yet looked at the volumes that discuss the activities in Turkey to research what they have to say.

I have come across, on this form and on another, a number of people who are quite interested in Turkey in WW I and are quite knowledgable. They even include a few Brits and Americans who can read Turkish! In'shallah! Some live in Turkey. If you come across any of these books at any sort of a reasonable price, I would grab them. I am sure that you can find a buyer willing to pay quite a good (for you) price. I would be happy to introduce you. One of them even sent his Turkish wife to the TGS, and she was not able to get a book. Such a sale might be a nice suppliment to the income of a deserving student. God knows I was starving when I was at university.

Again, many thanks.

Bob Lembke

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Thanks

#28

Post by bob lembke » 20 Sep 2005, 19:51

Seljuk;

Thank you also.

The article on flame throwers that you provided a link to is about 50-60% correct, which is very good. I often state that 85% of what you read about this weapon in WW I is incorrect. An American and a English general worked for as long as 17 years after the war to mess up the historical record on this weapon, and the Germans also had reasons to not write much about them.

I am astonished to report that, poking thru the Turkish article, I could read 1 % of it, mostly through the pictures and "borrow words" used in the Turkish. Also, the last time I was in Istanbul, I began to make some sense of a few signs just as I was leading. But it is very, very hard. At least you dumped the lovely but difficult Arabic alphabet. The only place I have been able to read Arabic was on banners or signs in written in Turkish in Turkey, especially of a religous nature. My hat is off to anyone who can actually read this wonderful and important but extremely complicated language. (Does anyone know that in the Soviet Union 20 years ago there were about 56 million Soviet citizens who spoke Turkic languages?)

Bob Lembke

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#29

Post by Tolga Alkan » 21 Sep 2005, 11:20

(Does anyone know that in the Soviet Union 20 years ago there were about 56 million Soviet citizens who spoke Turkic languages?)
Thats true.The Soviet Union was consisting of the Central Asian Turkish countries which are mostly independent now.

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Mehmet Fatih
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#30

Post by Mehmet Fatih » 21 Sep 2005, 13:23

Bob Lembke Rica Ederim.
According to Ludendorff's memoirs he favoured moving the Turkish XV Corps to the Western Front in 1918.However they were sent home to Turkey and were wasted as a military asset in the advance "towards the coveted oilfields" of the Caucasus.
Really? Does Ludendorff give any info about where the XV Corps would be deployed? Do you think they could make a good effect in the western front?I am sure that would be interesting.Turks in western front.
And yes, they were wasted because of Enver Pasha's obsessions.They could be used in Middle East, against the Brits.But even in the hardest times, he redeployed troops from Palestine to Caucasus front.

Regards

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