Turkish Marshals

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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genstab
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Turkish Marshals

Post by genstab » 01 Aug 2005 15:04

Would anyone have any info on Turkish Marshals of the World War One era? I'm trying to compile a list of all who held that rank and were alive during 1914-1918 even if retired. I had a guy or two from Turkey who was going to help me by looking them up in official records there but they evidently enrolled in college last year, got too busy with their studies and disapeared. Any information that might help me is appreciated. There is so little in English about them- I have a bunch of names but can't even verify the anglicized spelling let alone find out anything more about them with web searches. I already know about the German officers who held Turkish Marshal rank.

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Genstab

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 04 Aug 2005 01:58

A list here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tu ... d_Marshals

I don't know how accurate this is though:
14 January 1914 - Otto Liman von Sanders
19 August 1914 - Guido von Usedom
1916 - HH Sayyid Ahmed Pasha as-Sanussi
9 July 1917 - Erich von Falkenhayn
14 July 1918 - Ahmed Izzet Pasha (1864-1937)
Izzet Pasha

Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/izzet.jpg

Ahmet Izzet Pasha(1864-1937)
2nd Army commander Balkans 1912,2nd Army commander Caucasus 1916,Oct 1918 Minister of War and head of Turkish General Staff.Postwar-commander in Turkish War of Independence.

"He was..highly regarded by the Turks but much of his reputation rests on his performance in the War of Independence."(Erickson)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62048

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genstab
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Turkish Marshals

Post by genstab » 04 Aug 2005 04:00

I really appreciate the effort, but it was I who posted that on Wilkipedia. Thanks anyway.

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Genstab

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Post by seljuk » 02 Sep 2005 18:31


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genstab
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Turkish Marshals

Post by genstab » 02 Sep 2005 19:21

tHANK YOU ALSO FOR TRYING TO HELP- IT'S A GOOD PRIMER ON THE MAIN PERSONALITIES OF ww1 BUT MENTIONS NOTHING ABOUT HIGHEST RANK HELD AT LEAST WITH THE TURKISH OFFICERS; i COULDN'T FIND A MENTION OF ONE BEING A MARSHAL.

BEST REGARDS,
GENSTAB

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Post by Tosun Saral » 16 Dec 2005 19:50

Müşir Ahmet Izzet (Furgaç) Pasha was the only Turkish Marshal active in duty during the WW1. He became Grand Vezier between October 14th-November 11th 1918. Müşir means Marshal. Furgaç is the family name that he got after the new Law Reforms of Turkish Republic.

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Turkish Marshals

Post by genstab » 17 Dec 2005 16:02

That helps me a lot, but can you tell me which on the list were retired but still alive during the war, and if they died during the war, their dates of death? In my lists for both world wars I also included the retired officers out of respect for the rank- some nations stipulate that a field marshal never retires unless he wishes to. I know it's a lot to ask, but can you or someone in Turkey help me? There just aren't any English language sources available for biographies of Turkish generals.

What I'm asking for is a check of all the names in the Wikipedia list to see which ones were Marshals for sure and which were still alive in 1914- and their dates of death if before November 1918.

thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Field_Marshals

Thank you if you can help. I want Turkey to be included in the World War I list as it was a major combatant.

Best regards,
Genstab

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Post by Tosun Saral » 18 Dec 2005 11:02

The list is wrong. According to Ottoman Turkish tradition as we all know that a Pasha is a "General" the one who is cabable of military skills. Not only Officers but also civilians like governors, ambassadors, ministers, grand viziers were made Pasha. Müşir is field marshal. Only military personel were made müşir after a battle field. On the light of this little information let me exemine the following list.
(x) Turkish but not military personal and field marschal.
(xx) Turkish origine but member of Egyptian royal family. (Until 1918 Egypt was a dominion under the control of a Ottoman Turkish Empire. Like Australia.)

25 June 1832 - HH Muhammed Ali Pasha (1769-1849) (military personal not müşir)
12 November 1849 - HH Abbas I Hilmi Pasha (1812-1854) xx
25 August 1854 - HH Muhammed Said Pasha (1822-1876) xx
1864 - Omer Pasha - (1806-1871) (Müşir)
19 July 1868 - HH Muhammed Tawfik Pasha (1852-1892) x
10 July 1871 - Mahmoud Moukhtar x
1875 - HH Prince Hasan Ismail Pasha xx
1875 - HIH Prince Yusuf Izz-ud-din Effendi (1857-1916) (He is not a Pasha nor Müşir)
1875 - HH Husain Kamil Pasha (1853-1917) x x
1879 - Muhammed Ratib Pasha (d.1920) xx
23 February 1889 - HH Prince Ibrahim Hilmi Pasha xx
14 January 1914 - Otto Liman von Sanders (German made Müşir)
19 August 1914 - Guido von Usedom ( ? )
1916 - HH Sayyid Ahmed Pasha as-Sanussi x
9 July 1917 - Erich von Falkenhayn
14 July 1918 - Ahmed Izzet Pasha (1864-1937) (Müşir)
HH Muhammed Pasha Jahangiri (1710-1788) (? )
HH Ibrahim Pasha (1789-1848) xx
HH Muhammed Said Pasha (1798-1868) xx
HH Ibrahim Pasha (1828-1880) xx
Charles Gordon (Gordon Pasha) (1833-1885) (British commander in Sudan. Not a Turkish Pasha)
HH Mahmud Adam Pasha (1836-1886) xx
HH Mahmud Jalal ud-din Pasha (1836-1884) xx
Yahya Mansur Yeghen Pasha (1837-1913) xx
Osman Nuri Pasha (1837-1900) (Müşir)
HH Muhammed Nuri Pasha (1840-1890) xx
HH Ibrahim Fahmi Ahmed Pasha (1847-1893) xx
HH Prince Hasan Ismail Pasha (1854-1888) xx
HH Muhammed Pasha (1856-1889) xx
HH Zulkiful Ahmed Pasha (1860-1941) x x
HH Ali Khalid Pasha (1860-1948) xx
HH Ali Nur ud-din Pasha (1867-1952) xx
HH Muhammed Kamal ud-din Pasha (1869-1920) xx
Morali Ibrahim Pasha x (Son of Mehmet Ali Pasha from Egypt)
Deli Fuad Pasha (?)
Muhammed Rauf Pasha xx
HH Ghazi Ahmed Mukhtar Pasha (Müşir)
HH Prince Muhammed Tusun Pasha xx
Ghazi Osman Nuri Pasha (Müşir)
Ahmed Ayub Pasha xx
Arif Pasha (?)
HH Ahmed Fathi Pasha xx
Edhem Pasha (Müşir)
Velip Pasha (?)
Kasim Pasha Jalimoglu xx
HH Prince Ibrahim Hilmi Ismail Pasha xx

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Turkish Field Marshals

Post by genstab » 18 Dec 2005 17:01

Many thanks for your work in looking these men up. You have helped me immensely. A few commenta on some of them:

Erich von Falkenhayn was also a German general made Musir (July 9, 1917). And Guido von Usedom was a German Vice Admiral also made Musir (Aug 19, 1914; he actually commanded the Turkish artillery. He must be the only Admiral in history to be also a Field Marshal.

I need to ask about Ali Riza Pasha. He was not on the list but I found mention of him as a Marshal somewhere though from what limited information I could get on the internet he appears to have been a Prime Minister and Grand Vizier though he did go to the Military Academy. Can you tell me whether he was ever a Musir?

Last, I need to ask about the Grand Admirals. The names given are Gurcu Muhammad Halil Rafit Pasha and Hasan Husni Pasha Bozcandali (or Huseyin Huhnu Pasha?). Can you tell me if these men were indeed Grand Admirals and if that rank was equivalent to Musir? If so, I aneed to get their date of rank and date of death if alive during the World War.

If I can get these answers it will wind up my list of Turkish Marshals. I will give you credit for helping me when I reprint the list on the Frum.

Thanks again,
Bill McCroden
Genstab in Oregon

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Post by Tosun Saral » 19 Dec 2005 12:43

I will look for your questions.
A little knowledge: Müşir is an Arabic word used by the Turks which means in axact words "orderer or orderer by gestures,signs and marks" That means a müşir give orders just by showing his finger or with his gestures. A powerfull man? isn't it? The word Müşir entered to Turkish military terminology after the reforms of Tanzimat at mid 1800's. Before we used only pasha. The word equal to müşir was "Serdar-ı Ekrem" which means "Commander of the Sultan" If the Sultan was not with the army in a war, a pasha would appointed to represent the Sultan. The title was "Serdar-ı Ekrem"

For the navy the commander in chief was "Kaptan-ı Derya" which means Captain of the Seas. Kaptan is also an Arabic word used by Turks and later in all navies. (Captain) e.g Kaptan -ı Derya Müezzinoğlu Ali Paşa was the commander of Turkish navy who lost in a tragic way at Lepanto in 1571. Müezzinoğlu Ali Pasa was not a sea man. He was the commander of the Army group the Jannisaries. He was a good friend of the Sultan. Sultan made him captain of the Seas because they were too proud. They ever believed that no power on earth could win over them. As good muslims they forgot that only Allah is almighty.

As for Ali Rıza Pasha: He was an Officer graduated from the "Harbiye" (equvalent to West Point) made Musir on March 3rd 1905.(x) He had a very interesting live. At November 2nd 1919 he was made "Sadrazam" grand Vezier. He collected immediately the Ottoman parliament to support the Kemalist movement in Anatolia. But the allies were againts him. He resigned at March 1920. He was a Turkish Free and Accepted Mason like Talat Pasha. Talaat Pasha was the Grand Master of Turkish Masons.
Source (x) "Dort Mason Sadrazam"(4 Mason Grand Veziers) p.120 by Seyhun Tunasar
May all of them rest in peace.
With best wishes for Christmas and New Year
Tosun

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Turkish Marshals

Post by genstab » 19 Dec 2005 14:56

Thank you very much for your help, Tosun. You are the first person to help me- two other Turkish guys just vanished after saying they would. As I said, I want to honor the Turkish Marshals along with those of the other nations of the Great War. So my list is almost complete thanks to your kind help.

Best regards,
Genstab

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Post by Tosun Saral » 21 Dec 2005 18:57

No matter Bill, You can ask me whatever you want about Turkey.merry Christmas and a happy new year.Please visit my page:
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/7d696/

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