Regimental band organisation 1939-1942

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CNE503
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Regimental band organisation 1939-1942

#1

Post by CNE503 » 06 Dec 2019, 21:17

Hello,

Has anyone any idea about the organization of a regimental band (Musikkorps) in a 2. Welle infantry regiment in 1939-1942?
Was there a KStN for such a unit?
What was its manpower strength?

Thank you for your help.
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#2

Post by Gary Kennedy » 06 Dec 2019, 22:58

There's a KStN listed, but it's gone I'm afraid. I reversed engineered it from the unplaced posts after assembling the 1937 Regiment, and it actually looks to be identical to that seen in the 1941 Staff Company KStN from germandocsinrussia, in terms of personnel/ranks/weapons.

Gary


CNE503
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Re:

#3

Post by CNE503 » 06 Dec 2019, 23:05

Hello Gary, first thank you for your answer. Have you a link to this document?
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#4

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2019, 03:25

This should be the direct link;

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/7

Findbuch 12480, Akte 43, page 116 for the long way round.

All the other 1937 KStN for the Infantry Regiment are still available, and there's a summary total for the Regiment as I included in your related thread on the early war Artillery Regiment, also one in T78 R413, each giving a different amount of detail. Using the Band as detailed in the Feb42 KStN you get the same figures as found in the summaries, with one exception, in that the summary in R413 shows 84 officers and 495 NCOs, while I get 85 officers and 494 NCOs. Possibly the earlier version of the Band had two O Group NCOs rather than an Officer and one O Group NCO.

The original KStN is shown on Leo's site as 298 of 01Nov38.

Gary

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Re:

#5

Post by KStN201 » 07 Dec 2019, 13:45

I found this image in NARA roll T283 R26 which gives a more detailed breakdown for the bands. Its dated from Nov 1934 but the numbers still tie in with Gary's note above.

Dave
0309.jpg

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Re:

#6

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 14:06

If I read it correctly, an Infanterie-Regiment Musikkorps had one officer, 27 NCOs and 10 enlisted in its ranks. Am I right?
The difference with Leo's reconstruction of KStN 298 v. 1.11.38 is heavy: 1 officier, 7 NCOs and 32 enlisted, but this last one seems more logical.
CNE503
Last edited by CNE503 on 07 Dec 2019, 14:16, edited 1 time in total.
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re:

#7

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 14:07

Additional question: does anyone know how to describe a regimental band with NATO symbols?
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re:

#8

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 15:25

I compared the table given by Gary with Christoph Awender's KStN on www.wwiidaybyday.com.
The figures are very different:
- 165 troopers for a Schützenkompanie typ a, while Gary's table gives 190;
- 147 troopers for a Maschinengewehrkompanie for 177;
- 715 in an infantry battalion for 820.

Did Christoph build his KStN like Leo or are they from original sources?
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#9

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2019, 15:46

Now which tables are you looking at on Christoph's site (they are from the originals)?

The 165 strong Rifle Company is the 'a' version, with no 5-cm mortars and no MG Section, and the 147 strong MG Company is likewise the 'a' version, with no 8-cm mortars and 12 MGs. The 'a' Battalion totals 715.

The summary I posted on the other thread is for the 'b' version, with 190 per Rifle Company and 177 for the MG Company. Both 'a' and 'b' use the same Battalion HQ with 73 men. The 'b' Battalion is 820 all ranks.

Gary

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#10

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2019, 16:02

Continuing the attempts to 'put the band back together'...

The 'German Infantry Handbook' by Alex Buchner gives a detailed composition of the Band, though his work does pretty much start in mid 1941, and while packed with info is not a KStN type book. He gives 1 Musikmeister (officer) and 37 Musiker (NCOs and men), the latter as;

2 with both small and large flutes in c
2 with oboes
2 for basoons
1 with clarinet E flat
8 with clarinet B
4 with French horns F
2 with soprano coronets B
2 with tenor horns B
1 with baritone tuba B
2 with base tubas E
2 with base tubas or helicons B
2 with trumpets E
2 with trumpets B
3 with tenor trombones B
1 for small drum
1 for large bass drum

I make that 37, excluding the officer. The rank structure I got was indeed 1 officer, 27 NCOs and 10 men, total 38. To repeat, this is taking the decent info we have from 1941-42 and projecting it back a few years to fill in the posts we cannot confirm for 1937-38.

I'm not sure if that matches up with Dave's figures, though the overall number does.

Gary

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Re:

#11

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 17:02

Gary Kennedy wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 15:46
Now which tables are you looking at on Christoph's site (they are from the originals)?

The 165 strong Rifle Company is the 'a' version, with no 5-cm mortars and no MG Section, and the 147 strong MG Company is likewise the 'a' version, with no 8-cm mortars and 12 MGs. The 'a' Battalion totals 715.

The summary I posted on the other thread is for the 'b' version, with 190 per Rifle Company and 177 for the MG Company. Both 'a' and 'b' use the same Battalion HQ with 73 men. The 'b' Battalion is 820 all ranks.

Gary
Ok, it makes perfect sense. I believed the "a" version was standard. Do you know what were the "a" units (divisions) and the "b" ones? And do you know what were the overall figures for a "a" regiment?

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#12

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2019, 18:42

Yes, it's the other way round to what you might perhaps expect, 'a' is the lesser in personnel and has no mortars, 'b' is the larger in strength and has the full range of weapons.

Total strength for a Regiment type 'a' I have as either 2743 or 2745, depending on whether they had eight 7.5-cm guns or the usual six 7.5-cm and two 15-cm guns in the Infantry Gun Company.

Divisions using the types of Regiment I use the info from Leo's site, I don't think I've seen any Gliederung charts from 1938-39.

Gary

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Re:

#13

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 18:52

Gary, thank you again. My calculations are 2743, because the three regiments I'm currently studying are 2. Welle ones with a eight 7,5cm leIG 13th company.

Here are the figures:
- a regimental staff with 7/1*/5/32//45 (KStN 101[R]);
- three battalions with 21/2*/107/585//715, including a staff (5/2*/15/51//73 - KStN 111[R]), three rifle companies type a (4/22/139//165 - KStN 131a[R]) and a heavy company type a (4/26/117//147 - KStN 151a);
- a 13. Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie with 5/25/158//188 (KStN 171);
- a 14. Panzerabwehrkompanie with 5/31/127//163 (KStN 184);
- an Infanterie-Reiterzug with 1/4/28//33 (KStN 181);
- an Infanterie-Nachrichtenzug with 1/6/25//32 (KStN 221);
- a Musikkorps with 1/27/10//38 (KStN 298);
- an Infanteriekolonne with 2/9/88//99 (KStN 201).
Grand total: 85/7*/428/2223//2743.

* are for Beamten.

It looks like this (see attachment - sorry it's in French), even if I lack the NATO symbol for a music band.

Regards,
CNE503
Attachments
Infanterie-Regimenter août 1939.jpg
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gary Kennedy
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Re:

#14

Post by Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2019, 19:18

Yes, I got the same figures and outline as you when I put the tables together. And to show we're checking our work, attached is another page from T78 R413 that gives a single line summary for various unit types.

My differences are 2 few men and 4 fewer horses, and 1 more officer and 1 fewer NCO. The first two are accounted four by having a fourth 7.5-cm Inf Gun Platoon in lieu of a 15-cm armed one, the last two I can't trace. The other difference is that the attached total shows 204 and 180 horse drawn vehicles for the 'b' and 'a' Regiments respectively, while I get 196 and 172 instead. I think that's to do with limbers for the infantry guns, which aren't counted as separate vehicles on the KStN, but might be in the summary.

Gary
Attachments
Inf summaries.pdf
(231.97 KiB) Downloaded 60 times

CNE503
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Re:

#15

Post by CNE503 » 07 Dec 2019, 19:25

Gary, that's excellent, thank you so much for your help.
If you are ready to resume it, your help should be welcome very soon: I'm now dealing with the combat support units, the first one being the Aufklärungs-Abteilung :lol:

Very best regards from France.
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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