Uploading / downloading / copyright

Discussions on the music in the Third Reich. Hosted by Ivan Ž.
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Ivan Ž.
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Post by Ivan Ž. » 16 Jan 2008 12:33

You know perfectly well what I meant - I hope. To upload it online to be used by this forum.

And do you think that this CD set itself is maybe a "good idea"? Someone else's tracks, from various/unrelated periods, by various/unrelated bands and authors, with no credits whatsoever, and with different topics, all mixed up together? What's the point of CD? At least the titles could have been written properly - but that is too hard I guess, when one's not the owner of originals / doesn't know much on the subject.

Ivan

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Jan 2008 15:12

Ivan, depending on the age of the recordings used - this material may be WELL outside copyright now. Certainly the original lyrics and scores are in the public domain at 60+ years.

And of course it is a good idea - for someone who might want them. YOU may think it's not, and that's your right to so think; please grant every else the right to enjoy their own thoughts on the matter.

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Post by Ivan Ž. » 16 Jan 2008 15:27

The copyright problem here is tricky. One thing is for sure: every publisher owns the copyright to his work. Many songs from this pirate set of CDs are taken from, for example, Tomahawk company, and it is not ok that anybody else should sell, or share their work without permission. And that is just one example. Many people spend many hours/days/weeks/months working on old and often quite expensive records, sell their work for a couple of euros and it is still hard for someone to have some respect for them and their work? And now you are trying to convince me that it is ok to sell and profit from someone else's work? Come on.

Ivan

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Jan 2008 15:42

If the material is in the public domain by virtue of its age or the age of the recordings - yes.

If the material is not in the public domain by virtue of its age or the age of the recordings - no.

If someone wants to pay for whats in the public domain - that's their decision.

If someone wants to pay for whats NOT in the public domain - they purchase currently-copyrighted recordings or make the decision to buy/download pirated material...but again it's THEIR choice to commit a copyright offence or not.

This entire issue has such a high profile that few people can be unaware of the ramifictations of what they are doing - making it a "sin of commission" rather than a "sin of ommission".

But it's their choice - you are not their conscience. It's a very simple set of yes/no choices that we are ALL fit to make for ourselves.

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Ivan Ž.
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Post by Ivan Ž. » 16 Jan 2008 16:52

Yes, this is simple, I agree on that point. And the material in this particular set of CDs is not in the public domain. It has been digitized, remastered and produced by someone else and that work has been copied and redistributed without a permission. Of course, everyone has a choice, but not here (if one has agreed not to violate forum rules). End of discussion (on my side). Please do not continue this pointless arguing about human rights & illegal downloading.

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Ivan

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Jan 2008 17:42

Of course, everyone has a choice, but not here


Absolutely the wrong premise, the originator of this thread has openly said he would not upload here You've created an argument out of nothing.

Please do not continue this pointless arguing about human rights & illegal downloading


Actually - I was talking about legal rights and downloading. And its hardly pointless, but instead is right up there in the news at the moment.

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Matt Gibbs
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Post by Matt Gibbs » 17 Jan 2008 19:31

I'm interested to know when you think the copyright ends on such artistic media, according to the law applicable, which for a German artist would be German law.
I've been reading up on this very interesting subject and it suprised me, how much there is to read and how complex it is. Sorry to come so late into this debate Ivan but I find it very interesting!
Best wishes
Matt Gibbs

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Ivan Ž.
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Post by Ivan Ž. » 17 Jan 2008 21:39

Hello, Matt

It is all rather complex, I don't know where to begin with. For a start, it is still unclear if there are companies in Germany which still hold the copyright to some of the III Reich recordings (for example, ca. 10.000 were made just by Telefunken, and the company still very much exists).

Original antique records can still be bought on various auctions, stores, fleamarkets, but there are many differences between them; smaller part is easy to find, a huge part is rare, a large one is forbidden to be sold and the largest is unavailable/unknown today. Well, some of such records are being sold, by their owners, on CDs; and this partial copyright is the one we are discussing here. As I already wrote, we are talking about the material found (very important when historical rarities are in question - to discover them first!), bought, digitized and remastered by someone. It all takes time, money, skills and energy - and perhaps most of all - a good will to share the found material with the rest of the world. And if someone dares to say this worths nothing and is free to be exploited by anyone - then I have nothing else to add to such a person.

So, to quickly categorize something as complex as this subject as simply being in the public domain - is, if nothing else, funny (no offense to the author). Are, for example, all the rare photos - discovered, restored and published in the books of many of our dear forum members - also in the public domain and free to be copied and re-sold on CDs? Go and ask Dieter, Marc, Andreas, Max, Christian, George and many others for their opinion on this subject. It is the same thing. There is enough material online legally available for a download and there's really no need for anyone to be so greedy and try to get just about everything for free, even if it means taking the bread out of someone's mouth. Yes, many people actually do earn a living by discovering, researching, digitizing and publishing historical documents; many dedicate their entire lives to it.

In any case, if nothing else, there certainly is no need for a serious researching forum like this one to allow illegal downloading and piracy - especially of the material such as the mentioned CD - which not only has NO historical value (no political either, if that's what someone's looking for) - but is actually harmful. What could possibly be gained from unrelated all mixed up genres, uncredited artists and authors, and finally - disinformations.

With best regards to all readers,
Ivan

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 18 Jan 2008 10:59

The copyright on musical recordings expires 50 years after the death of the last-living person of those who created the work, according to the Berne convention. Several countries use 70 years in stead of 50.

If you wish to use the Axis History Forum to distribute music, whether directly or indirectly, you will be required to document that the music distributed is in the public domain of the countries where:
1) Axis History Forum,
2) you and
3) those you are distributing it to
are located.

Eugene (J. Baker)
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Post by Eugene (J. Baker) » 18 Jan 2008 12:28

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:The copyright on musical recordings expires 50 years after the death of the last-living person of those who created the work, according to the Berne convention. Several countries use 70 years in stead of 50.

If you wish to use the Axis History Forum to distribute music, whether directly or indirectly, you will be required to document that the music distributed is in the public domain of the countries where:
1) Axis History Forum,
2) you and
3) those you are distributing it to
are located.


It's clear what i have no such document.

witcher
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Re: Uploading / downloading / copyright

Post by witcher » 19 May 2019 15:43

One of my obscure interests, who owns the Reich copyrights? This also part of patents trademarks and copyrights law.
All property was transferred to...

"
An Executive order of 6 Jul 1942 gave the US Secretary of the Treasury authority over foreign-owned properties that constituted general purchasing power and required no active management, such as cash, bullion, bank deposits, and securities. The same order empowered the Alien Property Custodian to take over types of foreign-owned property that were productive resources requiring active management, such as business enterprises, patents, copyrights, trademarks, and ships. An Executive order of 18 Jun 1945, extended the Alien Property Custodian’s jurisdiction over all property of whatever nature in the United States owned by Germany or Japan or nationals of those countries, subject to some limitations.

An Executive order of 14 Oct 1946, terminated the Office of Alien Property Custodian and transferred its functions, funds, personnel, records, and property (except those connected with property in the Philippine Islands) to the US Department of Justice, Office of Alien Property.

Leo T. Crowley was Alien Property Custodian from 1942 to 1944; James E. Markham held the position from 1944 to 1946.
"
This quote from axishistory thread here but I have lost it.
It appears to be public domain? Transferred to US DOJ?

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Re: Uploading / downloading / copyright

Post by witcher » 20 May 2019 23:12

I'm still digging through international law on this topic. Historically when a nation is defeated in war the said goverment looses all property belonging to it during period of conflict. Individual property is retained. So any copyrights , patents and even trademarks are no longer property of the vanquished government. Private enterprises however if not state owned retain ownership of intellect property.
Ww2 Germany was an exception for example all ig faben patents were stolen illegally. This is well documented.

So if the ndasp party owned a song copyright it was lost after the war. If for example siemens owned a trademark it is retained. If the copyright was filed in neutral countries during conflict the copyright remains in force. ( but where do you send a royalty payment is unknown) Buenos Aries to bormann esq. et al?
The copyright status therefore depends on who filed the original application. Many of the post war Lps and CDs probably are illegal copies even though they appear legit.

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