Hermann Müller-John & Musikkorps der Leibstandarte-SS "Adolf Hitler"

Discussions on the music in the Third Reich. Hosted by Ivan Ž.
Tintin1689
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 01 Nov 2007 15:42
Location: East Sussex UK

Post by Tintin1689 » 02 Nov 2007 13:19

dixiedrummer wrote: Do you mean Flutes or Fifes? I thought with military infantry musicians, not bandsmen, each company was assigned 2 drummers and 2 fifers. The first band shown in Triumph of the Will is the infantry Fife and Drum corps correct? In a band Flutes and Fifes were used, but were flutes also used in the infantry music?
Hello Tim,

Nice to find someone else into drums and flutes

Technically we are both right as the fife is a keyless flute and the German infantry used a keyless flute up to 1945 and in the NVA as long as that body existed. A very good friend of mine has a collection of these. They are all wood or plastic imitation wood such as ebonite. The Bundeswehr switched to rather cheap and nasty looking metal keyless flute with plastic finger holes (they may even have gone to a one keyed flute). The flutes were all of one type so the music was usually melody line only, although there were some very good two part pieces.. There was a rich heritage of flute and drum marching music in the German forces which has been largely lost as it was seldom if ever recorded.

The German flutes/fifes also have less finger holes than the ones used by many US flute bands.Flute Bands in the British Army use keyed wooden flutes, as did, uniquely in the US forces, the 4th Marines.

The flutes in the band in those days in Germany were keyed wood/imitation wood versions of concert flutes and, incidentally, the clarinetists used two-piece "military" clarinets (which were used also in the British Army up to at least the fifties). These helped to contribute to the special sound of bands of this period.

Claymore
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 17 Sep 2004 22:47
Location: Scotland

Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 00:34

...the information provided here by 'Tintin1689' is certainly very knowledgeable and informative...

...I wonder if those who are interested in the placements of individual 'musiker' within a 'musikkorps', etc, know about this book:-

"Militärmusk In Geschichte und Gegenwart" by Dr. Peter Panoff

...below is a link to a copy already sold by USM Books....I have seen it available on other book sites, with different printing dates but all within the 3rd Reich period. Prices vary, usually around the 100 Euro (plus!) mark...

http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_military_music_book.html

...it certainly appears the kind of book to help answer some of your questions...

Regards.

User avatar
behemoth
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 18:47
Location: Arizona, USA

Post by behemoth » 06 Nov 2007 19:21

Claymore wrote:"Militärmusk In Geschichte und Gegenwart" by Dr. Peter Panoff
Hello Claymore,

That is an interesting book, isn't it? Thanks for the link. I will keep an "eye out" for other examples.

Dave

Claymore
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 17 Sep 2004 22:47
Location: Scotland

Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 22:23

...from 'Handbuch für die Singleiter der Wehrmacht' (printed approx 1940)...

LSSAHMusikkorps.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Claymore
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: 17 Sep 2004 22:47
Location: Scotland

Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 22:24

..another one...

LSSAHSpielmann.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Ivan Ž.
Host - Music section
Posts: 6454
Joined: 05 Apr 2005 12:28
Location: Serbia

Post by Ivan Ž. » 10 Nov 2007 11:10

Thank you for the photos!

An original version of the last image, from https://www.sz-photo.de/
Spielmann der SS-Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler 1938. Der Spielmann der Leibstandarte bläst um 6 Uhr das Wecken.
00052406.jpg
Cheers,
Ivan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

kpp
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Mar 2002 16:06

Post by kpp » 27 Apr 2008 09:31

Ivan Ž. wrote: ...another drum major...
Image
mty wrote: The NCO leading the bugler squad might be Gustav Weissenborn since he was the deputy of Müller-John as LSSAH band leader.
The NCO is perhaps Tambourmajor Herbert Borngräber. Born in 1911, he entered very early the Leibstandarte. My only problem is that in 1944, when he was killed near Rethel on transport to the Normandy front, he was Hauptscharführer while on this photo he is already Oberscharführer.

User avatar
mty
Member
Posts: 1027
Joined: 20 Oct 2003 23:24
Location: Tampere, Finland

Post by mty » 28 Apr 2008 09:26

kpp wrote: The NCO is perhaps Tambourmajor Herbert Borngräber.
Do you have photo of Borngräber? His name is completely new to me. It is not mentioned in the otherwise very comprehensive (and perhaps the only title in English of this subject) work of Brian Matthews.
Claymore wrote: "Militärmusk In Geschichte und Gegenwart" by Dr. Peter Panoff
http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_military_music_book.html
I think the SS-Hstuf. is Müller-John in the mid-30's. He seems to have LSSAH cufftitle and his face is quite similar. What do you others think?
MilMusik1.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Ivan Ž.
Host - Music section
Posts: 6454
Joined: 05 Apr 2005 12:28
Location: Serbia

Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Apr 2008 11:02

mty wrote: I think the SS-Hstuf. is Müller-John in the mid-30's.
Yes, that is Müller-John.

Cheers,
Ivan

kpp
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Mar 2002 16:06

Post by kpp » 28 Apr 2008 18:17

mty wrote:Do you have photo of Borngräber?
Unfortunately I dont have any photo of him. I simply know from my father who was a friend of Borngräber in Berlin that he was Tambourmajor of the Leibstandarte. Unfortunately my father passed away several years ago, so I can no more show him the extract of Triumph of the Will in order to ask him if its definitely him. The wife of Borngräber passed away too, so no means either to ask her. As long as I know they had no children and I dont know if his sister is still alive, but I doubt.

User avatar
Ivan Ž.
Host - Music section
Posts: 6454
Joined: 05 Apr 2005 12:28
Location: Serbia

Post by Ivan Ž. » 11 Nov 2009 10:31

Hello, everyone

Does anyone know the name of this SS-Oberscharführer conducting the LSSAH band - and also the year when the photo was taken? Maybe 1940?

MZFLSSAH.jpg

Complete photo (notice the LSSAH kettle and bass drums on the left):

MKLSSAH.jpg

Thanks in advance,
Ivan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

pavel michalek
Member
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Mar 2008 13:19

Post by pavel michalek » 11 Nov 2009 16:05

Ivan Ž. wrote:Maybe 1940?
I think you´re right. His garrison cap is an old SS-VT type and I think he has bevelled old Prussian style lower pockets.

User avatar
Ivan Ž.
Host - Music section
Posts: 6454
Joined: 05 Apr 2005 12:28
Location: Serbia

Post by Ivan Ž. » 21 Nov 2009 00:37

pavel michalek wrote:I think you´re right. His garrison cap is an old SS-VT type and I think he has bevelled old Prussian style lower pockets.
Thank you for the fast reply Pavel.

Has anyone found a possible name of this NCO maybe? I know simple NCOs are not as known as many SS officers today, but he is a bandleader in a probably most researched SS unit, so I'm hoping his name might have been mentioned somewhere (but I'm referring only to reliable documents)...

Thanks again,
Ivan

Auceps
Member
Posts: 318
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 17:03

Post by Auceps » 27 Dec 2009 00:53

Hello everyone!

Excuse me, but does anyone have any more pictures of Leibstandarte-SS Musikkorps, escpecially in their black uniform? :) :)

Thanks in advance!

Auceps

Dieter33
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 19 Jun 2009 19:12

Post by Dieter33 » 27 Dec 2009 10:42

Auceps wrote: Excuse me, but does anyone have any more pictures of Leibstandarte-SS Musikkorps, escpecially in their black uniform?
A little bit tiny ...
LSSAH-MK.jpg
Source: http://balsi.de/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Music of the Reich”