Musikkorps der Leibstandarte-SS "Adolf Hitler"

Discussions on the music in the Third Reich. Hosted by Ivan Ž.
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behemoth
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Post by behemoth » 03 Jul 2007 18:52

mty wrote:For Behemoth: please see the following topic regarding Müller-John and his activities in Poland, 1939: viewtopic.php?t=93570

Excellent, thanks.

Dave

Tintin1689
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Post by Tintin1689 » 01 Nov 2007 19:51

Gentlemen,

I do hope I can be of some assistance to you, my knowledge of the SS is a bit feeble, but of military bands more extensive.

You need to distinguish between the Regimental Band (of which Müller John was the head as bandmaster) and the flute band which would be headed by the drum major. The former would be men recruited as bandsmen (hoboisten) whose primary task was making music and who would form part of RHQ, the latter in the German Army and Waffen SS were drawn from the rifle companies at a scale of 2 drummer and 2 fluters per company they bore the appointment of bugler (hornisten) and their primary task was to act as buglers and infantry soldiers. Each battalion would have a battalion drum major (batallionstambour) and there would be a Regimental drum major in charge of the lot (Regimentstambour)

On parade the band will almost always turn out all the bandsmen who can be mustered. In the German forces if troops were paradingonly the drummers and fluters from the companies on parade would turn out. From the footage we can see that at least 5 companies of the LSSAH are on parade.

The Drum Major will march in front with the flute band (spielmannszug/spielleute) behind him. The Regimental Band march behind, with the bandmaster and the schellenbaum (which is the flag of the band) in the intervening space. The Bundeswehr changed this, but the NVA paraded in the traditional fashion. The band and flute band usually played turn and turn about. The drum major held his stick inverted and beat time as he marched, he also signalled drill movement with it and used it to salute when marching past (he would not carry his staff, which was often a valuable presentation item, in the field but use instead his bugle. The bandmaster only conducted with his baton when the band was static or moving back into column of route after having wheeled to the side of the road to march their troops by (which is what is happening in the film) - this was because during part of the drill move the bandsmen will have difficulty perceiving the drum major's signals.

So the gentleman with the orchestral baton is indeed most probably Müller John (if he bore the bandmaster appointment at this time) as it is very hard to believe the bandmaster would deputise his role on what was probably the most important parade in his band's calendar

In Treue fest
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Post by In Treue fest » 01 Nov 2007 23:04

The following quotation is taken from the book Musik in der Waffen-SS. Ein Blick zurück auf die Entwicklung deutscher Militärmusik by Fritz Bunge (Munin-Verlag, Osnabrück ²1986, pp. 29/30):
Über Hermann Müller-John kann nur weniges berichtet werden. Er stammte aus Helmstedt, war gedienter Militärmusiker und hatte den Ersten Weltkrieg als Frontkämpfer erlebt. Für Tapferkeit vor dem Feind war er mit dem Eisernen Kreuz I. Klasse ausgezeichnet worden. 1933 tritt er als Musikführer in Erscheinung, 1934 wird ihm der einmalige Rang eines "Leibstandarten-Obermusikmeisters" verliehen. Zugleich wurde er erster Musikinspizient der SS-Verfügungstruppe.

Nach dem Zusammenbruch 1945 hatte er Zuflucht bei Bergbauern in Tirol gefunden und schied dort - gemeinsam mit seiner Frau und Tochter - aus dem Leben. [...]

Hermann Müller-John war nicht der Militärkapellmeister alter Schule, er war in erster Linie Soldat mit einem gewaltigen Schuß Abenteurerblut in den Adern.

Seine musikalischen Kenntnisse waren keineswegs vertieft, doch hatte er das Glück, hervorragende Chorführer zur Seite zu haben, die für die musikalischen Einstudierungen sorgten und bürgten

dixiedrummer
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Post by dixiedrummer » 02 Nov 2007 00:36

TinTin,

Do you mean Flutes or Fifes? I thought with military infantry musicians, not bandsmen, each company was assigned 2 drummers and 2 fifers. The first band shown in Triumph of the Will is the infantry Fife and Drum corps correct? In a band Flutes and Fifes were used, but were flutes also used in the infantry music?

Tim

Tintin1689
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Post by Tintin1689 » 02 Nov 2007 13:19

Hello Dixie,

Nice to find someone else into drums and flutes

Technically we are both right as the fife is a keyless flute and the German infantry used a keyless flute up to 1945 and in the NVA as long as that body existed. A very good friend of mine has a collection of these. They are all wood or plastic imitation wood such as ebonite. The Bundeswehr switched to rather cheap and nasty looking metal keyless flute with plastic finger holes (they may even have gone to a one keyed flute). The flutes were all of one type so the music was usually melody line only, although there were some very good two part pieces.. There was a rich heritage of flute and drum marching music in the German forces which has been largely lost as it was seldom if ever recorded.

The German flutes/fifes also have less finger holes than the ones used by many US flute bands.Flute Bands in the British Army use keyed wooden flutes, as did, uniquely in the US forces, the 4th Marines.

The flutes in the band in those days in Germany were keyed wood/imitation wood versions of concert flutes and, incidentally, the clarinetists used two-piece "military" clarinets (which were used also in the British Army up to at least the fifties). These helped to contribute to the special sound of bands of this period.

Claymore
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Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 00:34

...the information provided here by 'Tintin1689' is certainly very knowledgeable and informative...

...I wonder if those who are interested in the placements of individual 'musiker' within a 'musikkorps', etc, know about this book:-

"Militärmusk In Geschichte und Gegenwart" by Dr. Peter Panoff

...below is a link to a copy already sold by USM Books....I have seen it available on other book sites, with different printing dates but all within the 3rd Reich period. Prices vary, usually around the 100 Euro (plus!) mark...

http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_military_music_book.html

...it certainly appears the kind of book to help answer some of your questions...

Regards.

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behemoth
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Post by behemoth » 06 Nov 2007 19:21

Claymore wrote:"Militärmusk In Geschichte und Gegenwart" by Dr. Peter Panoff
Hello Claymore,

That is an interesting book, isn't it? Thanks for the link. I will keep an "eye out" for other examples.

Dave

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Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 22:22

...three images of LSSAH taken from 'Handbuch für die Singleiter der Wehrmacht' (printed approx 1940)...

LSSAHChor.jpg
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Claymore
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Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 22:23

..second...

LSSAHTrompeter.jpg
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Claymore
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Post by Claymore » 06 Nov 2007 22:24

...final...

LSSAHMusikkorps.jpg
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Ivan Ž.
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Post by Ivan Ž. » 10 Nov 2007 11:10

Thank you for the photos!

Cheers,
Ivan

kpp
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Post by kpp » 27 Apr 2008 09:31

The NCO is perhaps Tambourmajor Herbert Borngräber. Born in 1911, he entered very early the Leibstandarte. My only problem is that in 1944 ,when he was killed near Rethel on transport to the Normandy front, he was Hauptscharführer while on this photo he is already Oberscharführer.

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mty
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Post by mty » 28 Apr 2008 09:26

Do you have photo of Borngräber? His name is completely new to me. It is not mentioned in the otherwise very comprehensive (and perhaps the only title in English of this subject) work of Brian Matthews.

I think the SS-Hstuf. is Müller-John in the mid-30's. He seems to have LSSAH cufftitle and his face is quite similar. What do you others think?

MilMusik1.jpg
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Ivan Ž.
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Post by Ivan Ž. » 28 Apr 2008 11:02

Yes, that is Müller-John.

Cheers,
Ivan

kpp
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Post by kpp » 28 Apr 2008 18:17

mty wrote:Do you have photo of Borngräber?
Unfortunately I dont have any photo of him. I simply know from my father who was a friend of Borngräber in Berlin that he was Tambourmajor of the Leibstandarte. Unfortunately my father passed away several years ago, so I can no more show him the extract of Triumph of the Will in order to ask him if its definitely him. The wife of Borngräber passed away too, so no means either to ask her. As long as I know they had no children and I dont know if his sister is still alive, but I doubt.

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