Ypenburg wrote:If you look at the door in the centre of the wall, the wooden parts covering the windows, and the roll-down shutters, it is obviously that this is NOT Bergen op Zoom, not Arnhem, not Nijmegen just NOT Holland. It's either France or Italy.A.C.E. van T. wrote:First 2 : Not Bergen op Zoom /Roosendaal Region,was to cold and rainy in October.Maybe Market Garden
Again, the buildings, the wooden parts covering the windows, the fences, the electricitystakes you see...NOT DutchA.C.E. van T. wrote:3rd :Possible,but don't recognize anything
Nope. If you look at the buildings the "height" is to high and to steep for Holland. The only thing that comes a little close would be the Grebbeberg, and is in not, or the south of Limburg but then the forest is to long (left-right).A.C.E. van T. wrote:4th :Possible,if it's the West side of the Brabantse Wall they're facing
For Bergen op Zoom Region there are only a few places that are possible.
Brabanste Wall has some steep sides with altide differentials of 30 meters or so.
All kinds of strange hills with all kinds sorts of trees and marshes or streams.
Ideal for defensive purposes.
(Either you get bogged down by mudd,yellow sand ,hill upon hill(2 or 3mter high) on the Brabantse Wall,or you will on the small polderdikes and innundations at the westside or boggy pastures at the eastside.
And at every crossing a MG or PAK and close behind that small mortars or rifflegranades.
With Germans always on the high ground.
And FLAK and Howitsers placed at prefab locations along the Bath Stellung and the 16.S.St.Abt.Stellung)
The Spanish troops found that out the hard way and Napoleon alsmost did the same.
There are only 2 dutch cities carved in Arc de Triumf : Maastricht and Berg op Zoom.
Napoleon was lucky someone gave away a secret entrence to the city for mony.
Before this BoZ's nickname was La Pucell (The Virgin)
Want more proof: When you travel from Antwerp to Bergen op Zoom,you have a flat surface and then suddenly you see on the rightside a hill called "Woensdrecht"
It's just something that sticks out the Brabanste Wall.
Brabantse Wall runs from Putte to Steenbergen.
It will take some time for the buildings on the pfoto's.
I have some up to 1899 of this sector,but to me they are unformiliar.
Sorry to say but NOT Holland for sure.
Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
-
- Member
- Posts: 261
- Joined: 23 Apr 2008, 16:51
Re: misc Fj units in Holland, 1944
Re: misc Fj units in Holland, 1944
I am "new" in this very interesting thread who interested me because I have few germans documents about these fights in Holland (and Belgium).
I only want to say that Fj. Batl Bloch (Hptm. Bloch) was indeed main part of III./Fj. Ers. u. Ausb. Regt. 3 who arrived from Nancy area after 25 september and fought in Eindhoven- Hertogenboch sector in october.
And I agree with the italian localization of (nice) Fj. photos shown recently (not last one, of course). I am not dutch, but house are very typical of a mediteranean land.
I am (always) in research about exact information about Bataillon Ohler (Hptm), sometimes Kampfgruppe Ohler, perhaps formed with remains of Gren. Regt. 1053 (or 1055 ?) (= 85. or 89. ID). I have aready seen that this little unit was part of Kpfgr. Dreyer. Does someone have info ?
I only want to say that Fj. Batl Bloch (Hptm. Bloch) was indeed main part of III./Fj. Ers. u. Ausb. Regt. 3 who arrived from Nancy area after 25 september and fought in Eindhoven- Hertogenboch sector in october.
And I agree with the italian localization of (nice) Fj. photos shown recently (not last one, of course). I am not dutch, but house are very typical of a mediteranean land.
I am (always) in research about exact information about Bataillon Ohler (Hptm), sometimes Kampfgruppe Ohler, perhaps formed with remains of Gren. Regt. 1053 (or 1055 ?) (= 85. or 89. ID). I have aready seen that this little unit was part of Kpfgr. Dreyer. Does someone have info ?
-
- Member
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: 04 Sep 2004, 22:18
- Location: GA
Re: misc Fj units in Holland, 1944
Luft 76, I would be very interested in any files you have.
Regarding Ohler, there are 2 entries in the LXXXVIII KTB for September (I only have it for September).
Sept 27, 16:00: "Ausgang Fernschreiben an 85. und 245.I.D.:
1.) 1.) Das gesamte Btl. Ohler hat auf Befehl des AOK.15 nördlich der Zuid-Willemsvaart zu verbleiden. Einsatz in
Höhe des linken Flügels der HKL Kampfgruppe Chill (85.I.D.) oder vorwärts gestaffelt.
Aufgabe: Sperrung der von Vechel nach ’s Hertogenbosch führenden Strassen. Aufklärung in der befohlenen
Richtung."
Sept 28, 08:35: "Kom.-General an Generalleutnant Chill:
Lage bei Dinter ist nicht so, wie ich dies nach meinem gestrigen Gespräch erwarten konnte. Ohler mit Pak
und von Art. unterstützt hat Dinter zu nehmen und die Strasse Vechel – ’s Hertogenbosch zu sperren.
Generalleutnant Chill meldet, dass die entsprechenden Massnahmen im Gange seien."
I think there were other references to "Ohler" in the LXXXVIII files I put on on Sturmpanzer.com
thanks,
Mad Dog
Regarding Ohler, there are 2 entries in the LXXXVIII KTB for September (I only have it for September).
Sept 27, 16:00: "Ausgang Fernschreiben an 85. und 245.I.D.:
1.) 1.) Das gesamte Btl. Ohler hat auf Befehl des AOK.15 nördlich der Zuid-Willemsvaart zu verbleiden. Einsatz in
Höhe des linken Flügels der HKL Kampfgruppe Chill (85.I.D.) oder vorwärts gestaffelt.
Aufgabe: Sperrung der von Vechel nach ’s Hertogenbosch führenden Strassen. Aufklärung in der befohlenen
Richtung."
Sept 28, 08:35: "Kom.-General an Generalleutnant Chill:
Lage bei Dinter ist nicht so, wie ich dies nach meinem gestrigen Gespräch erwarten konnte. Ohler mit Pak
und von Art. unterstützt hat Dinter zu nehmen und die Strasse Vechel – ’s Hertogenbosch zu sperren.
Generalleutnant Chill meldet, dass die entsprechenden Massnahmen im Gange seien."
I think there were other references to "Ohler" in the LXXXVIII files I put on on Sturmpanzer.com
thanks,
Mad Dog
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
My german documents about these fights are only few Soldbucher or personals papers about three soldiers. So, I try to learn more about them.
First, a grouping of a Feldwebel of Gren. Regt. 937 (245.ID), killed in Flandern the 8 of september by a polish soldier who kept his papers and gave them later to a belgian.
Second, a Soldbuch of a young paratrooper of 12./Fj. E. u. A. Regt. 3, who were stationned in Verdun, before first fight around Nancy between 5 and 24-25 sept. and later sent to Eindhoven and Hertogenbosch area where he was killed the 23 of october. In the 90's, I have met a veteran of this schwere kompanie (MG) who gave me some general informations. Note that the name of the chief of III. Bataillon, Hptm Bloch, is given in the "Stellenbesetzung der Fallschirmtruppe" (p. 441) and also by Erich Busch in "Die Fallschirmjäger Chronik" (p. 286-287).
About Ohler, it's more hardier but start is also in original papers. I have a documents grouping of a soldier of 353. ID who fought in normandy but was later (probably after Falaise's pocket) officialy or unofficialy incorporated in an other unit. This one is probably II./Gren. Regt. 1053 but unfortunaltly, the two original germans stamps presents on two differents documents are difficult to read exactly. In spite of, these are very interesting because one shows the name of Kampfgruppe Ohler and is signed by "Ohler, Hauptmann und Bataillon's Kdr." The second document is more because it gives the list of 9 Nahkampftäge between 28 august and 24 october, most in Belgium and Holland. The "proof stamp" is the same for the first doc with Ohler's name.
I have seen the copy of KTB of 88. AK. and I am very happy. Do you know if others KTP are avaible ?
First, a grouping of a Feldwebel of Gren. Regt. 937 (245.ID), killed in Flandern the 8 of september by a polish soldier who kept his papers and gave them later to a belgian.
Second, a Soldbuch of a young paratrooper of 12./Fj. E. u. A. Regt. 3, who were stationned in Verdun, before first fight around Nancy between 5 and 24-25 sept. and later sent to Eindhoven and Hertogenbosch area where he was killed the 23 of october. In the 90's, I have met a veteran of this schwere kompanie (MG) who gave me some general informations. Note that the name of the chief of III. Bataillon, Hptm Bloch, is given in the "Stellenbesetzung der Fallschirmtruppe" (p. 441) and also by Erich Busch in "Die Fallschirmjäger Chronik" (p. 286-287).
About Ohler, it's more hardier but start is also in original papers. I have a documents grouping of a soldier of 353. ID who fought in normandy but was later (probably after Falaise's pocket) officialy or unofficialy incorporated in an other unit. This one is probably II./Gren. Regt. 1053 but unfortunaltly, the two original germans stamps presents on two differents documents are difficult to read exactly. In spite of, these are very interesting because one shows the name of Kampfgruppe Ohler and is signed by "Ohler, Hauptmann und Bataillon's Kdr." The second document is more because it gives the list of 9 Nahkampftäge between 28 august and 24 october, most in Belgium and Holland. The "proof stamp" is the same for the first doc with Ohler's name.
I have seen the copy of KTB of 88. AK. and I am very happy. Do you know if others KTP are avaible ?
-
- Member
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: 04 Sep 2004, 22:18
- Location: GA
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
For the LXXXVIII corps, there are actually a fair number of files available from NARA. I have anlage B and C on sturmpanzer,com:
http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx ... em=3&sec=0
Part of the trouble I am having is to track all the small battalion sized FJ units known only by thier name.
Is "Die Fallschirmjäger Chronik" a very good book ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx ... em=3&sec=0
Part of the trouble I am having is to track all the small battalion sized FJ units known only by thier name.
Is "Die Fallschirmjäger Chronik" a very good book ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
-
- Member
- Posts: 261
- Joined: 23 Apr 2008, 16:51
Re: misc Fj units in Holland, 1944
At the moment it looks like Chill and other commanding officers like von der Heydte (85 I.D.) replaced officers who didn't function well as was needed by experiancend ones very rappid.Luft 76 wrote:I am "new" in this very interesting thread who interested me because I have few germans documents about these fights in Holland (and Belgium).
I only want to say that Fj. Batl Bloch (Hptm. Bloch) was indeed main part of III./Fj. Ers. u. Ausb. Regt. 3 who arrived from Nancy area after 25 september and fought in Eindhoven- Hertogenboch sector in october.
And I agree with the italian localization of (nice) Fj. photos shown recently (not last one, of course). I am not dutch, but house are very typical of a mediteranean land.
I am (always) in research about exact information about Bataillon Ohler (Hptm), sometimes Kampfgruppe Ohler, perhaps formed with remains of Gren. Regt. 1053 (or 1055 ?) (= 85. or 89. ID). I have aready seen that this little unit was part of Kpfgr. Dreyer. Does someone have info ?
There seems to have been a officers reservepool(like for instance bridge garding dutie were common)
Men who were just recovering from wounds and not yet fit for combat ,were also given amongst others such assignments too.
Furthermore;
Many soldiers even lacked basic training and losses were high,so officers had to give good example and died just as easy as footsoldiars.
About the photo's,I can only say that it's possible.
Lot's of buildings have been destroyed since then.
And about the poles: We had those too in the past.I remember it was for telephonewire.
There is a photo of Canadian Engineers blowing up a mine near such a pole.
Have to look it up.
All kinds of strange building over here.
For instance http://www.markiezenhof.nl
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
After reading the KTB of 88. AK, I am now quite sure that "Bataillon Ohler" was part of the 85. ID, later itself "Kampfgruppe Chill (85.ID)". Near all the area named in the doc I have are similar in the german KTB, and for the same days, especialy about the "Gegenangriff gg. der feindliche Brueckenkopf am Scheld - Maas Kanal, bei Aart".
About "Fj. Chronik" of E. Busch, I think it is like all books and documents : it must me compared. But in my opinion, it is an usefull book.
If you look on detail the Fj. Kgr of summer and automn 44, you will note that most were commanded by a Hauptmann. Bloch is one of them, like Paul, etc...
Thanks so much for T. Peters and his nice website for free access to several very interesting documents (I also love the KTB of 5. Pz Armee) !
About "Fj. Chronik" of E. Busch, I think it is like all books and documents : it must me compared. But in my opinion, it is an usefull book.
If you look on detail the Fj. Kgr of summer and automn 44, you will note that most were commanded by a Hauptmann. Bloch is one of them, like Paul, etc...
Thanks so much for T. Peters and his nice website for free access to several very interesting documents (I also love the KTB of 5. Pz Armee) !
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
Poster Ben,Wehrmacht-awards.com
"Plasmolen",near Arnhem,September 1944?
"Plasmolen",near Arnhem,September 1944?
- Attachments
-
- Plasmolen1.jpg (134.58 KiB) Viewed 2424 times
-
- Plasmolen2.jpg (119.91 KiB) Viewed 2424 times
-
- Member
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: 04 Sep 2004, 22:18
- Location: GA
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
I am seeing more instances of "Btl.Ohler" on some maps form Anlage A. I will post the material as soon as I organize it.
Mad Dog
Mad Dog
- Fallschirmjäger
- Member
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: 02 Sep 2005, 05:12
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
Thanks for showing those pictures Peter,new to me again.
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
I am very curious about maps !
I never seen such armoured german SdKfz for lei Flak. Have someone more information or photo ?
I never seen such armoured german SdKfz for lei Flak. Have someone more information or photo ?
-
- Member
- Posts: 261
- Joined: 23 Apr 2008, 16:51
Re: misc Fj units in Holland, 1944
A.C.E. van T. wrote:At the moment it looks like Chill and other commanding officers like von der Heydte (85 I.D.) replaced officers who didn't function well as was needed by experiancend ones very rappid.Luft 76 wrote:I am "new" in this very interesting thread who interested me because I have few germans documents about these fights in Holland (and Belgium).
I only want to say that Fj. Batl Bloch (Hptm. Bloch) was indeed main part of III./Fj. Ers. u. Ausb. Regt. 3 who arrived from Nancy area after 25 september and fought in Eindhoven- Hertogenboch sector in october.
And I agree with the italian localization of (nice) Fj. photos shown recently (not last one, of course). I am not dutch, but house are very typical of a mediteranean land.
I am (always) in research about exact information about Bataillon Ohler (Hptm), sometimes Kampfgruppe Ohler, perhaps formed with remains of Gren. Regt. 1053 (or 1055 ?) (= 85. or 89. ID). I have aready seen that this little unit was part of Kpfgr. Dreyer. Does someone have info ?
There seems to have been a officers reservepool(like for instance bridge garding dutie were common)
Men who were just recovering from wounds and not yet fit for combat ,were also given amongst others such assignments too.
Furthermore;
Many soldiers even lacked basic training and losses were high,so officers had to give good example and died just as easy as footsoldiars.
About the photo's,I can only say that it's possible.
Lot's of buildings have been destroyed since then.
And about the poles: We had those too in the past.I remember it was for telephonewire.
There is a photo of Canadian Engineers blowing up a mine near such a pole.
Have to look it up.
All kinds of strange building over here.
For instance http://www.markiezenhof.nl
then go to beeldbank and fill in :duitser
From the 3rd page you'll find pics of captured Fallschirmjager,Panzersperre De Zoom damaged buildings and even WW 1 pics
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
Reading this interessting thread I wanted to add a few things;
-To be a bit more secure; Plasmolen is 16 km south of Nijmegen. (not very close to Arnhem)
Kampfgruppe Hermann/fallschirmjager Regiment 5 fought in this area.
-With Grasmaher/Grossmehl/Grassmel they mean all the same unit (FJrgt.20) but like as many names spelled wrong.
I have a signed photo of Graßmehl and it was spelled with an ß. I think he writes his own name correct.
Does anyone have some info or heard about Fallschirmjager Batallion Balzereit? It has the same feldpostnumber (22375) as Fallschirm batallion/kampfgruppe Jungwirth. This unit (Balzereit) fought in the Veghel area.
Floris
-To be a bit more secure; Plasmolen is 16 km south of Nijmegen. (not very close to Arnhem)
Kampfgruppe Hermann/fallschirmjager Regiment 5 fought in this area.
-With Grasmaher/Grossmehl/Grassmel they mean all the same unit (FJrgt.20) but like as many names spelled wrong.
I have a signed photo of Graßmehl and it was spelled with an ß. I think he writes his own name correct.
Does anyone have some info or heard about Fallschirmjager Batallion Balzereit? It has the same feldpostnumber (22375) as Fallschirm batallion/kampfgruppe Jungwirth. This unit (Balzereit) fought in the Veghel area.
Floris
-
- Member
- Posts: 1545
- Joined: 04 Sep 2004, 22:18
- Location: GA
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
Fj.Btl. Balzereit
Appears in the LXXXVIII KTB (T314 R1623) on the following dates:
Oct 23
Oct 26
Nov 5
Nov 6
let me know if you want these, and I will gather up the pages.
thanks,
Mad Dog
Appears in the LXXXVIII KTB (T314 R1623) on the following dates:
Oct 23
Oct 26
Nov 5
Nov 6
let me know if you want these, and I will gather up the pages.
thanks,
Mad Dog
- Kriegsberichter
- Member
- Posts: 260
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 22:09
- Location: Holland
Re: Misc FJ units in Holland, 1944
Hi Mad Dog,
stationed at Nijmegen (klooster Nebo) was stationed 'Lehrstabes für Offizierausbildung des Fallschirm A.O.K. 1' under command of Oberst Hartung, with 95 Stammpersonal and 14 Lehrgangteilnehmer.
(did you get the Krafft papers?)
Peter (Holland)
stationed at Nijmegen (klooster Nebo) was stationed 'Lehrstabes für Offizierausbildung des Fallschirm A.O.K. 1' under command of Oberst Hartung, with 95 Stammpersonal and 14 Lehrgangteilnehmer.
(did you get the Krafft papers?)
Peter (Holland)