Intended FJ role in Sealion

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2011 15:38

The easy-to-repair batches were repaired in the Netherlands, the hard-to-repair batches shipped to Germany, usually on barges. Of these ops many photographs exist.
Yes, Nowarra's Ju 52 history contains half a dozen pics of the repair and recovery teams at work in the Dutch countryside, sadly tho' none of the barges returning large assemblies to Germany. Very interesting about Fokker tho', I didn't know that :) Can I ask where your figures for the various repairs etc. come from?
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by Zuylen » 22 Feb 2011 16:47

The figure comes from researches by (a.o.) historian (lt-col rtd) Brongers, well-known on his May 1940 work in Holland.

From my own research I know that most of these refurbishments took place in an auxilary works of Fokker's in the North of Amsterdam, whereas assembly was done elsewhere, mostly at Schiphol itself.

That location in the North of Amsterdam had been hired by Fokker when the Dutch airforce orders grew beyond the capacity limits of the original Fokker works. After the Dutch capitulation - within weeks - it was used for the refurbishment of particularly wings and fuselages of the Ju 52 which were transported in on these famous barges. Scrap was transported back to Germany, probably in order to be melted for recycled use.

At the location in the north of Amsterdam fuselages and wings were repaired, after which they were transported to Schiphol (and perhaps other locations) to be reassembled into a complete and partially overhauled Ju 52. These planes were then tested by German and Dutch test pilots from Schiphol. Dutch testpilots only flew with limited fuel supply in order to prevent them from crossing the Northsea obviously.

After refurbishment of Ju 52 sections (of the May 1940 victim-planes), Fokker continued to produce parts for the Ju 52. Also over 300 off Bücker Bestmann [Bu-181] training planes were constructed at Fokker's. In 1943 most of the machinery was evacuated to Germany causing the Fokker plants to cease all activities for the LW.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2011 17:30

Zuylen, thanks for the reference, the figures etc. will come in useful in the future, it fills a major 1940 gap! :D
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Zuylen
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by Zuylen » 22 Feb 2011 17:46

You're welcome!

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2011 17:55

Just had a thought....does Brongers mention or know if the gathering of various classes of barge for Sealion caused difficulties for returning large assemblies to Germany??? 8O
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by Zuylen » 23 Feb 2011 12:42

phylo_roadking wrote:Just had a thought....does Brongers mention or know if the gathering of various classes of barge for Sealion caused difficulties for returning large assemblies to Germany??? 8O
Don't think he does and I don't believe it did. On the contrary, when Seelion was called off, the Dutch and Belgian harbours were packed with these 'beheaded' barges. These could have formed excellent means of transport shipping anything back into the German homeland.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by fredleander » 28 Jul 2011 11:36

Zuylen wrote:The production of the Ju 52 was extremely slow and low. I believe that it never topped the 5.000 pieces until 1945.
5.415, I believe. Some were also manufactured in France, even after the war.
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
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Re: 16.000-man Fallschirmjäger

Post by fredleander » 29 Jul 2011 18:47

Zuylen wrote:Totally correct. The losses in Holland had been around one third of the strength of FJR 1 and half FJR 2, leaving around 3.000 able airbornes..


From where do you have these numbers, please? Are you not mixing up the numbers with the 22nd Luftlande-Division?
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
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Re: 16.000-man Fallschirmjäger

Post by Zuylen » 29 Jul 2011 21:11

fredleander wrote:
Zuylen wrote:Totally correct. The losses in Holland had been around one third of the strength of FJR 1 and half FJR 2, leaving around 3,000 able airbornes..
From where do you have these numbers, please? Are you not mixing up the numbers with the 22nd Luftlande-Division?
No. I am not mixing up the airborne and 22. ID losses.

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Re: 16.000-man Fallschirmjäger

Post by fredleander » 29 Jul 2011 22:02

Zuylen wrote:
fredleander wrote:
Zuylen wrote:Totally correct. The losses in Holland had been around one third of the strength of FJR 1 and half FJR 2, leaving around 3,000 able airbornes..
From where do you have these numbers, please? Are you not mixing up the numbers with the 22nd Luftlande-Division?
No. I am not mixing up the airborne and 22. ID losses.
Would you mind telling me your source for these loss figures of the the 7th Fliegerdivision in Holland?
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Jul 2011 07:39

nebelwerferXXX wrote:Div HQ
parachute infantry regiment...3 battalions
parachute infantry regiment...3 battalions
A/L infantry regiment...4 battalions (with MGs, PAK guns and light vehicles)
A/L artillery regiment...24 x 75-mm light guns and 12 x 105-mm light guns
support troops
There was a projected method of FJ invaders' arrival called Plan 3: Strangulation of London. Would one 16,000-man FJ division be enough ?

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Re: 16.000-man Fallschirmjäger

Post by fredleander » 30 Jul 2011 10:05

fredleander wrote:
Zuylen wrote:
fredleander wrote:
Zuylen wrote:Totally correct. The losses in Holland had been around one third of the strength of FJR 1 and half FJR 2, leaving around 3,000 able airbornes..
From where do you have these numbers, please? Are you not mixing up the numbers with the 22nd Luftlande-Division?
No. I am not mixing up the airborne and 22. ID losses.
Would you mind telling me your source for these loss figures of the the 7th Fliegerdivision in Holland?
Since I am not getting a response from Zuylen I would like to quote Farrar-Hockley's loss figures for the 7th Flieger-division in Holland and Belgium. He states 180 dead, wounded and missing. Most of these (143) in Sturmabteilung Koch - its mission the three river crossings along the Belgian border and Eben Emael. This unit was mostly outside the regular FJR's complement as it was established around one company and an engineer platoon with 500 extras transferred directly from the Fallschirmjäger school.

Hardly important losses considering the number of soldiers employed - 7.200 men (Farrar-Hockley). If these numbers are correct the division should have little problems refurbishing itself till September.
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: 16.000-man Fallschirmjäger

Post by fredleander » 30 Jul 2011 10:14

Zuylen wrote:Totally correct. The losses in Holland had been around one third of the strength of FJR 1 and half FJR 2, leaving around 3,000 able airbornes. A few hundred more from Ersatz and the remnants in Norway. The total jump school instruction team had been assigned to active units in the april-may 1940 campaign. In the Summer of 1940 a figure of 6.000 able airbornes was probably even too high a number..
Please see my earlier posting quoting Farrar-Hockley's FJ loss figures. Are these wrong?
Zuylen wrote:The 22. Airborne Division had an operation airlanding strength of around 10.500 heads. That was the so called 'Fliegende Staffel' or 'airlifting strength'. It had been battered in the Netherlands, specifically around the Hague. But these losses were probably made up easily from the reserves that had belonged to the 'Erd Staffel' or 'Earth strength', the major chunk of the division that was left in Germany during the Holland operation. Taking the airborne and airlanding strength together one might assume that around 16.000 men combined forces could have been met in the Summer of 1940.
To the 22nd division was added a complete infantry regiment in Summer 1940 (Halder).
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by fredleander » 30 Jul 2011 10:45

phylo_roadking wrote:The detachment dropping on this side of the RMC would indeed be pinned down - the land from the RMC right out to the coast is as you can see VERY flat....I wonder if they were only intended as a diversion?!
There is no mention of units dropping at the South side of the RMC in the 7th division's order. It would also be illogical as they would then come between the German forces landing from the sea and the defenders. One of its missions was to secure the RMC crossings after the hills North and North-west of Folkestone had been taken. Which is logical. That would be a downhill advance. For what it's worth.
phylo_roadking wrote:The one obstacle (sic) that THAT particular slope DOES throw up, however...is to the idea that the first two waves have to SURROUND the airfield and invest it before the glider attack on the field itself; that plan means infiltrating ALONG that slope to surround the field, then attack uphill!
I cannot see that there is any basis for your above theory. In Norway and Holland the FJ units jumped directly onto the airfields. Sola/Stavanger was taken within the hour (official Norwegian reports) by one FJ company (120 men) in spite of a spirited defense.
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - an eight-book series on the Pacific War:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by Zuylen » 30 Jul 2011 13:28

Fredleander, you are very unpatient. No need to make statements like you don't get a response from me. Today is my first opportunity to hit the keyboard again.

The 7th Flieger Division only comprised one nearly complete 1st Regiment, a two battalion 'strong' second regiment and a few non-airborne divisional units like PAK, signals, etc., which all originated from regular infantry with exception of half a company airborne Sanitäter. The Hocke outfit was a composite taskforce, around an airborne nucleus, comprising many non-airborne engineers and (other) specialists. Its losses were modest indeed. No way that the 7th Flieger Division comprised 7,000 airbornes before the invasion in the west. The total number of available airbornes (april/may 1940) was no more than around 4,500 to begin with (7.FD, incl. Hocke), including Ersatz and including airbornes without jumpschool module.

The figures that UK vet 'Farrar Hockley' apparently came up with, are beloney. He obviously had not a clue (or you mis-quoted him), like many UK/USA based authors, regardless of their profession. I have never seen accurate UK/USA figures on the German airborne/airlanding ops in the Netherlands in 1940, like they still have to cover up one of many Monty blunders like Market Garden, which was a copy-cat operation of the 1940 German landings in the Netherlands.

The losses of FJR.1 (incl. one Ersatz Kp) alone already hit around 750 men dead and wounded incl. a few POW's taken into the UK. The losses of FJR.2, that only comprised two battalions, where (relatively seen) even higher. Almost the entire 1st Battalion (FJR2) was lost [KIA/WIA/POW] in the battles around the Hague and 6./FJR.2 suffered about half its strength in losses at Valkenburg. The balance of II./FJR.2, that had landed at Waalhaven (south of Rotterdam) saw no battle, since it remained in reserve. Particularly the bad losses at Ypenburg (the Hague area) bore heavy on I./FJR.2. Most of the survivors were so unlucky to be taken to Ymuiden seaport and being shipped to the UK on the 13th and 14th of May 1940. In the Summer of 1940 FJR.2 had to be rebuilt entirely, whereas the building scheme for 7.FD had been that by then three full Jäger Regiments would have existed to fill the first German airborne division.

Sources: To begin with, the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen of FJR.1 and FJR.2, although much 'cleaned'. For example the Verlustliste of FJR1 (including the Ersatz Kompanie Moll) goes to 1,125 men. The sick and (recovered) MIA are deducted from that list to take out impurity.

For a better understanding of the fierce battles that the airbornes fought in the Netherlands (and the severe losses suffered) see: http://www.waroverholland.com

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