Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

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Dili
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Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 29 Apr 2009 22:47

I don't know if this outside rules asking for a translation of 3 images scans i have found in web about Yugoslav AAA defense. Since they bring info about Yugoslav Air Defense to the forum i think there is no problem.

I mostly interested in unit sizes , locations and OOB /TOE that can be extracted from text. Thank you.
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 29 Apr 2009 22:48

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 29 Apr 2009 22:49

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Sturm78
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Sturm78 » 30 Apr 2009 11:24

Hi all,

Interesting information!! It is a pity that I did not understand a word of the text. :lol: :lol:
However there is an error in the identification of a photograph: Italijanski mitraljez Breda M39 kalibra 20mm
It is a 15mm ZB vz 38 MG.

I hope someone can translate it. I think that it helped me with this question: See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=148647

Regards Sturm78.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 30 Apr 2009 12:30

Nothing valuable in paragraph No 1; translation of paragraf No 2 (italics are mine)

2. Air defense (AD) of specific important targets and objects at the whole of state territory was the responsibility of AA units of Territorial AD. Planning of this defense was the authority of Territorial Air Defense (TAD) Command, with assistance of Anti-Aircraft Defense (AAD) Command and the commands of Aerial Zones. Aerial observing and alarming service were under authority of Gendarmerie units, and Civil Defense was the authority of Passive Protection Direction of TAD Command HQ.
Territorial AA defense had a total of 112 AAA batteries, 29 AAMG companies and 30 AAMG platoons. Of 448 guns, 328 were older weapons, types M.5/28 & M.5/32 (converted M.5 field guns, 76.5mm L/30, first with wooden, second model with steel platform), with 120 more modern M.28A (Skoda 76,5mm L/50, aka “8/700”) . Of 528 AAMGs, 420 were old Hotchkiss, St. Etienne and Swartzlose (rifle caliber MGs) , with 108 modern (large caliber) weapons 15mm M.38 (Czech ZB-60) and 20mm M.39 (Breda M.35). There were 13 searchlight companies for nocturnal defense, each of 4 platoons with 4 searchlights, plus one listening device. Reflectors were either 120 or 150-cm diameter, of various models: M.36-K, M.25/30KD, M.28-BV etc, with Gertz M.29-G listening devices. Range of reflectors was: 5300 meters for 120-cm, 6000 meters for 150-cm model. Listening devices were able to follow the airplanes flying at the speed up to 360-450 km per hour (depending on weather conditions) .

If you want more, pls wait after the holiday/weeked's end. :)

Regards, Edge / Antic
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 30 Apr 2009 12:45

Sturm78 wrote: It is a pity that I did not understand a word of the text. :lol: :lol:
In my country there is an old saying "It's all Spanish for me". Situation changed recently, however, thanks to the enormous influx of various "telenovelas". So if you try to start some female on Spanish, this will probably effective enough :lol: (common problems will be dealings with location/currencies).
Sturm78 wrote: However, there is an error in the identification of a photograph: "Italijanski mitraljez Breda M39 kalibra 20mm"
(Italian AAMG Breda M.39 of 20mm caliber)
It is a 15mm ZB vz 38 MG.
Agree. :)
Sturm78 wrote: I think that it helped me with this question: See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=148647
Definitively. :wink:
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Sturm78 » 30 Apr 2009 14:40

Hi The Edge,

Yes, I want more. I will wait.... :lol:

Regards Sturm78.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 30 Apr 2009 18:51

Many thanks the Edge and very welcome the notes about the guns, would be nice if you could translate a bit more when obviously you have some free time. Happy that it interests others like Sturm78 and that he could find info about Searchlights.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 05 May 2009 08:32

3. According to the regulations of 1936 General War Service, the Armed Forces organizes the aerial defense of its headquarters, units and services by use of active, passive and auxiliary measures.
Anti-aircraft units, armed with anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) and anti-aircraft machine guns (AAMG), were the main asset of troop air defense, formed into 9 AA battalions (each incorporating 3 batteries of M.36 or M.37 AA guns, one AAMG company with 12 guns, and one reflector company with 6 (??) platoons of 4 reflectors plus one listening device) - two AA battalions were under Supreme HQ, with the remaining 7 each under one Army command (Yugoslavia had 7 “Armies”, each composed directly of 3 to 4 divisions); there was also 28 AAMG companies, each with 6 “heavy” AAMGs (one company per each infantry division).
Operative Army had a total of 108 AA guns*, types M.36 (Skoda vz.36, 76.5mm L/53) or M.37 (Skoda vz.37, 75mm L/50), plus 360 pieces of “heavy” AAMGs, types M.38 (15mm ZB) and M.39 (20mm Breda). All these weapons were modern, but there was not enough quantity. Reflectors were of the same models as Territorial AA units, but listening devices were more modern “Elektro-Akustik” M.37E model.
Army units also had rifle-caliber Swartzlose MGs and M.37 (ZB-30J) LMGs, equipped with modern AA sights. (Both in 7.92x57mm standard Army caliber)
AA units were also prepared for active defense of Air Force structures. There was 15 AAMG platoons in formation of air bases, each with 24 MGs, for defense of permanent airports, 30 AAMG squads in formation of airport companies (12 MGs each) for defense of various temporary fieldstrips, plus 2 AAMG squads for defense of training stations, each with 6 MGs – these were Air Bombing Training Centre and Air Marksmanship Training Centre.
Total of 732 old MGs (all rifle-caliber) were available for these purposes, systems Hotchkiss, St. Etienne and Swartzlose.

4. (Also not interesting)

* Total of 120 bought - 80 pcs of M.36 (from Czechoslovakia 1937-38, 1200 rounds per gun) and 40 pcs of M.37 (from Germany 1939-40, only 100 rounds per gun available in April 1940)
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Next chapter – “Actions of AA Defense of Belgrade, 6th & 7th April, 1941”. Interested?
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Sturm78 » 05 May 2009 17:47

Hi Edge,

Thank very much for your translation. :D Very interesting!!

According to this text, I guess that the german sound locators Ringtrichter- Richtungshörer (RRH) was designated by Yugoslavians as Elektro-Akustik M.37E model, no?? See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=148647.

Only a question about Yugoslav AA heavy guns in 1941: 76.2mm M05/28: 328 (together with M05/32)
76.2mm M05/32
76.2mm Skoda M28A: 120
76.2mm Skoda M36 (vz 37) :80 (I guess that all delivered, no?)
75mm Skoda M37 ?? or M39 ?? (vz37) : 40 or 80 ?? bought. I guess only delivered 28, no?? (80+28=108 guns of translated text) See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=148647. :?

Regards Sturm78.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 05 May 2009 17:59

Many thanks The Edge.
Next chapter – “Actions of AA Defense of Belgrade, 6th & 7th April, 1941”. Interested?
Please do when you will have free time. I hope it says how many guns(and what kind) were there and units. Btw i see that are references to Battalions but what were the names of that battalions, any reference in text?

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 06 May 2009 14:16

"80mm" (actually 76.5mm, L/30) M.05/28 & M.05/32 - 328 pcs (Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia states 320)
"80mm" (actually 76.5mm, L/50) Skoda M28 – 120 pcs (Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia states 100 x M.28 plus 32 x M.28A model)
76.5mm Skoda M.36 (L/53) - 80 pcs (probably some in reserve/training units; my guess 6 battalions with 12 guns, total 72 in operational army units)
75mm Skoda M.37 (L/50) - 40 pcs * (same as above; 3 operational battalions – 36 guns)
(That makes 6 plus 3 AAA battalions, 72 + 36 guns; total: 9 battalions, 108 guns.)

Very good source of mine (book / academy work) “Yugoslav Army 1922-1935” deals a lot with Skoda 1928 deal. It states that 100 pieces of 80mm M.28 AA were delivered by 1930; they were used to form 7 battalions and 2 independent operative batteries (7x12+2x4 = total 92 guns; what was the use of 8 surplus guns is not mentioned, so I guess they were either stored for reserve or used in some training unit). This book also states different number of mountain guns “40 batteries” (160 pcs), with 100 delivered by 1930. Military Encyclopedia states a total of 100 x M.28 and 36 x M.28A mountain guns. Here again we have M.28 & M.28A models, with “A” models delivered after 1930, in the second round of Skoda deal. Maybe Yugoslav officials changed their mind, ordering lesser number of mountain guns (plenty of old ones available) and higher number of modern AA guns (M.05 conversions were not considered perspective). AA guns were more expensive, so total number of guns was reduced (instead 60+20 pcs, 36+32 pcs bought). For the other artillery models (300 x 8-cm field guns, 72 x 10-cm light howitzers, 20 x 15-cm long guns and 10 x 22-cm heavy howitzers) data fits.

Regards, Edge / Antic
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*) Data checked - Military Encyclopedia Info

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 06 May 2009 21:10

In below website it lists 10 AA Battalions giving one extra to the called "Coastal Command". It says it was the 8th AA Battalion. Being 9 and 10th in GHQ.

http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/k ... tion/1941/

Dr.Leo in his website concurs http://niehorster.orbat.com/040_yugosla ... /army.html


Edit: What were the chances that this 8th Bn had Naval AA guns? Apparently it appears this Corps was an Army only affair. Maybe Sibenik and Kotor Fortress had some naval land units but it doesn't appear in this succint listings.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 07 May 2009 15:59

There was 8 armies in 1941 - but not the "8th Army" as such.

As you see at Dr. Leo, there is one "3rd Territorial Army". This was a provisional Army, made of operational units placed under supervision of "3rd Army Region Command Troops". Army Region Commands were not operational (fighting) units, its main purpose was training of reserve troops (for the army with the same number) and maintainig peace & order on its conscription territory during the war operations (so, they were kind of "shaddow armies"). However, in case of emergency, this commands could also took more serious actions, using both fighting and training units found on its territory. "3rd Territorial Army" was activated as fighting unit because Yugoslav borders were so long (and Yugoslavia itself 1941 surrounded by enemy states) so existing 7 armies were not enough to cover them all (because of lack of their mobility / communications equipment).

Since such "armies" had no standard army structure, its army-level units were improvised by placing under its command units from other armies. AA battalion of "3rd Territorial Army" (certainly not called "The 8th") was made of batteries borrowed from other armies' battalions, so it was pure temporary unit. (So, there was 8+2 AA battalions in Yugoslav army 1941, but without the creation of new batteries.)

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 07 May 2009 21:30

Thanks. In listings there is no AA unit under 3rd Territorial why did you refer it? Maybe this don't changes your reasoning and the end result but with Territorial Army there are 9 Armies: 1-7 plus 3rd Territorial and Coastal. 8th AA Bn is in Coastal Army. There is no AA unit under 3rd Territorial.

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