Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 08 May 2009 08:17

At this moment, all I can say that is not rational to leave 3-division strong "3rd Territorial Army" without AA battalion, and place it to just one division in "Coastal Area Command" (Yes, there were 3 more inf rgms more, but these fortress rgms were garrisons of major naval bases, with their AA defense plus AA guns on the ships). "3rd Territorial" also had more strategic and sensible position. I think there was not enough modern AA guns to form 10 "regular" AA battalions - that means all 120 guns bought placed in operational units (with at least one of them with guns of different models/calibers - major drawback, acceptable only as temporary solution).

Next week I'll visit Belgrade Military Museum, so I'll try to investigate this further.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 08 May 2009 21:58

Okay thanks The Edge.

If you will have time for more thing for research if you can this account http://www.sassaia.it/tenenteboffa.html refers "con stazione lanciasiluri a Kobila" about a land based Torpedo station at Kobila in Kotor. It is from an italian soldier there in occupation but since i never saw an italian instalation of that kind i wonder if it was Yugoslav.

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 11 May 2009 09:04

Another chapter translated (italics are mine)

Actions of AA Defense of Belgrade, 6th & 7th April 1941

Five AA battalions with 10 batteries (M.28, M.36 and M.37 guns) were provided for AA defense of Panchevo-Belgrade-Zemun area. Belgrade aerial defense was mainly well replenished with officer cadre: three AA battalion COs were active officers, remaining two came from reserve; almost all battery COs were active officers.
AA defense of Belgrade started to activate its units from 9th March – 10 batteries of AAA, 2 reflector and 3 AAMG companies in total were activated. Their area of defense was: Ovcha-Beli Potok-Ostruzhnica-Surchin-Batajnica. Fighter planes were to take action outside this area. Each battery had 800 rounds of ammo at its disposal; they were placed at following positions: Vrachar, Torlak, Banovo Brdo, Banyica, Bezhaniyska kosa, at the Ovcha village and at Kalemegdan (Belgrade Fortress). Batteries were connected by telephone lines with Central Information Centre, that was placed at safe shelter at Topolske Shupe; telephone lines also existed between the batteries themselves.
Three bomber waves attacked the Belgrade at 6th April 1941. The first wave was at 6.45 AM, with planes flying at first at medium altitude (3 to 4,000 meters), later to descend to bombing altitude of 800 to 900 meters. About 360 German bombers took part in this attack, divided into three groups. First group bombed the targets in the sectors of Dedinye and Topchider, second (made of Ju-87 dive-bombers) attacked the bridges, piers and AAA positions, while the third bombed the targets in eastern part of city.
After this attack all telephone lines were broken, so AA batteries remained without necessary communications. “Stukas” also completely destroyed one AAA battery (together with an AAMG platoon) at Kalemegdan, with one other battery, near Belgrade airport, were partly put out of action.
Second wave took place about 10.00 AM. Belgrade was attacked with 87 planes, bombing from medium and high altitudes, so only heavy AA guns acted against them.
Third wave took place about 4.00 PM, with some 100 enemy bombers.
This day Belgrade AA defense shot down at least 5 Ju-87 “Stuka” dive bombers.
During the night of 6th/7th April came the order to relocate of all AA batteries placed north of Sava and Danube River to southern side, to Torlak-Kumodrazh-Banyica positions, what was executed.
After the 4 PM wave enemy planes did not appear until the 11 PM, when few came; reflectors failed to locate them and listening devices were also powerless to produce the targeting data because of strong wind. One German plane fell from unknown reasons, during its low altitude circling.
There were no mass attacks on city during the 7th April; German bombers came in smaller groups, dropped bombs at certain parts of city, and then left in the direction of Hungary or Romania. AA defense probably shot down 6 German planes during this day.
There are extremely different references about the number of shot-down German planes. According to the Belgrade Air Defense CO, during the 6th & 7th April, AA of Belgrade shot down 26 planes, plus 14 was shot by fighter planes (6th Figter Regiment). German military magazine “Militar Vohenblat” also stated that German side lost 40 planes over Belgrade. It is interesting that official daily reports of German units show 11 planes lost at 6th and 5 planes for 7th April, although it is known from other German documents that their side almost certainly lost about 40 planes over Belgrade in these two days.
Preparations for the retreat of Belgrade AD forces started during 11th April. HQ of Belgrade AD left its command post at Banyica 06.45 AM, April 12th, 1941, accompanied with two AA batteries and one AAMG company; its route of retreat was (Belgrade-)Valjevo-Zvornik-Sokolac-Sarajevo.

Next chapters are: (Actions of) “Territorial AA Defense during April War”, “AAD of Airports and other objects”, “AAD of Army units” & “Fleet AAD”.
However, all of them deal with examples of AA defense successes against German and Italian planes, not with its organization & equipment. (Still interested?)
:roll:

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 11 May 2009 09:13

Dili wrote:If you will have time for more thing for research if you can this account http://www.sassaia.it/tenenteboffa.html refers "con stazione lanciasiluri a Kobila" about a land based Torpedo station at Kobila in Kotor. It is from an italian soldier there in occupation but since i never saw an italian instalation of that kind i wonder if it was Yugoslav.
Yugoslav main naval base was in "Boka Kotorska" Bay, with Kotor as biggest town there. This was also a very important naval base of former Austro-Hungarian Empire (until 1918). Since during WWI various torpedo instalations were fashionable for defense of naval instalation / protection of important bays (remember the defense of Norway, 1940?), my guess is that this was some Yugoslav torpedo station, inherited from "previous owner".

Regards, Edge / Antic
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 11 May 2009 11:28

Thanks The Edge

"However, all of them deal with examples of AA defense successes against German and Italian planes, not with its organization & equipment. (Still interested?)"

For me not necessary, i translated a small sample via google and it is war stories.

Did you got any answer to the Army AA Battalions question?

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 12 May 2009 09:18

Seems confirmed the Torpedos being WW1, but unknown if modernised:

http://www.val-navtika.net/val-134/zgod ... zgodovina/

Google translation of last paragraph:
"Austrians are all Boko Kotorsko from 1850 to 1860 under the leadership of Admiral LÁZÁR Mamula thoroughly consolidate and armed. Built or renovated the eight fortresses, leading to dozens of new guns and hundreds of minutes. Sam Boko the entrance to the fortress to protect two of 40 guns and mine barrages, which were also provided for the important Channel Kumbor and Chains. First World War in the hips pričakalo 3500 the crew of soldiers, 218 cannons trdnjavskih with gauges from 37 to 305 mm, 99 mitraljezov, 46 strong headlamps and nine torpedo tubes."

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 14 May 2009 10:46

I don't believe that 1860-era torpedos were still in use 1914. :lol: (although Austria was very "economical")

However, the genetal pattern of defense is obvious from the text - fortress guns, machineguns, reflectors, mine barrages, torpedo stations, along considerable permanent fortifications. What changed from 1860 to 1914 is that Boka Kotorska defense was strenghtened even more, to include protection of Naval instalations from land-attack also. This paid off in 1915 when Montenegrin troops tried to capture the base, with French help; Two French artillery battalions were landed and they started the bombardment. However, France failed to send promised ground troops (about division strength) - combat engineers would be needed the most; simultaneous French/English fleet action also failed to materialise. Austrians then sent more ships to base, including coastal battleship with 240mm guns (she started to fire on French positions), plus more land troops. Under such response, combined Montenegrin/French action was called off, after considerable loses. French siege artillery was evacuated soon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My mission to Belgrade was unfortune one. :oops: Since museum was preparing for some special display, I got only 15 minutes with my contact there. Next attempt - June (to connect this with Military Exhibition at Belgrade Fair).

Regards, Edge / Antic

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 15 May 2009 03:47

I don't believe that 1860-era torpedos were still in use 1914.
I think it says in text that the nine Torpedos were there in "first world war" and not in 1860(there even existed torpedos in 1860?) or am reading it wrong?
My mission to Belgrade was unfortune one. Since museum was preparing for some special display, I got only 15 minutes with my contact there. Next attempt - June (to connect this with Military Exhibition at Belgrade Fair).
Thanks. If you have time please check my post with some questions about Royal Yugoslav Navy.


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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 15 May 2009 09:28

"First World War in the hips pričakalo 3500 the crew of soldiers, 218 cannons trdnjavskih with gauges from 37 to 305 mm, 99 mitraljezov, 46 strong headlamps and nine torpedo tubes."

On the second glance, you're right - this last data is WWI-related. :)
When I read both original & machine-translated texts, comparation gave me rather good picture of Boka Kotorska WWI defense. On the funny side, by combining the "Robot-English" & using Serbian words similar to Slovenian ones, I got following translation:

"In First World War 3500 soldiers stratch their hips on 218 stiffish canons and 37 to 305mm rails, whereas 46 strong heaters was inside 99 machine guns and nine torpedo tubes" :lol:

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by The Edge » 15 May 2009 09:51

Dili wrote: there even existed torpedos in 1860? or am reading it wrong?
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"
(Admiral Farragut, 1864 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mobile_Bay )

(Actually, these were some early type of sea-mines)
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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 19 May 2009 10:02

Hehe, i always wondered where that quote came from so thanks for filling that.

Do you know what were the AA guns in Naval Bases like Kotor and Sibenik? If i go from only old Austro-Hungarian equipement i get only 90mm/45 and 66mm/30 (BAG). Was there any new gun bought by the Navy ? For example when they bought 83.5cm for Dubrovnik class and others and 40mm/67 for Beograd there were some that went for Naval Bases protection?

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Re: Yugoslav AA Defense scans - translation required-

Post by Dili » 29 May 2009 22:02

Norway Coastal Torpedo Battery:
The Germans were unaware of a torpedo battery near Oscarsborg's main gun battery at North Kaholmen Island. Built in 1901, it was equipped with three shore-mounted dual elevators firing the torpedoes via underwater tunnels. The torpedoes were Austro-Hungarian-built Whitehead torpedoes (in the torpedo factory of Fiume, Hungarian Kingdom, now Rijeka, Croatia) of the same turn-of-the-century vintage. These torpedoes had been practice-launched well over 200 times before being fired in anger, and no-one was certain if they would function or not.[8] They did. Blücher received two direct hits, one near her forward turret Anton and the second in the engine room, leaving her drifting out of control in the narrow fjord. The torpedoes sealed her fate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Blücher

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