Dutch sub machine guns

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YAN
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Dutch sub machine guns

Post by YAN » 14 May 2009 11:03

Hi, having seen a web page about the Dutch KNIL cavalry I come across NCOs being equipped with,
Schmeisser 9mm M/1938 Submachine-guns
Did the KNIL have a large ammount of these weapons and did the Dutch European army have such weapons ?.
Thanks Yan.

Ardee
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by Ardee » 14 May 2009 19:27

To the best of my knowledge, the Dutch European army did not use SMGs, though I suppose police units might have had one or two. The KNIL had some, but I believe the number was quite small.

nuyt
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by nuyt » 14 May 2009 20:08

Correct. There is an unconfirmed report that the Vrijwillige Burgerwacht Amsterdam had the Erma (and they are probably the donor of the Erma sported by Prins Bernhard of the Netherlands).

jopaerya
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by jopaerya » 14 May 2009 20:50

Hello

Here a sub.m.g. for the protection of the Dutch Royal Family .

Regards Jos

Photo = Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog
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David Reasoner
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by David Reasoner » 14 May 2009 20:51

The standard KNIL submachinegun was the MP28 II (aka M/1938 Schmeisser), normally issued to NCO's from 1939. The KNIL ordered 2420 of them, the Japanese recorded 797 captured on Java alone. The KNIL also ordered 2000 Thompson M/1928 from the US, but not all appear to have been delivered, with some being diverted to the Australia (along with an additional shipment of 1000 aboard the KPM steamer Bantam) and the KNIL in the West Indies. Japanese records list 723 captured on Java, although Stellan Bojerud's old KNIL History website indicated they were mostly issued to KNIL units outside Java. The Japanese also list 31 Reising 50 submachineguns among the weapons captured on Java.

David

YAN
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by YAN » 15 May 2009 10:20

Hi David, 797 is more then I expected, so for wargaming TO&E, I will give the Cavalry 1 x SMG per troop of 10 men.
Yan.

nuyt
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by nuyt » 15 May 2009 14:35

KNIL had 2000 Schmeisers

Ardee
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by Ardee » 15 May 2009 23:17

David Reasoner wrote:The standard KNIL submachinegun was the MP28 II (aka M/1938 Schmeisser), normally issued to NCO's from 1939. The KNIL ordered 2420 of them, the Japanese recorded 797 captured on Java alone. The KNIL also ordered 2000 Thompson M/1928 from the US, but not all appear to have been delivered, with some being diverted to the Australia (along with an additional shipment of 1000 aboard the KPM steamer Bantam) and the KNIL in the West Indies. Japanese records list 723 captured on Java, although Stellan Bojerud's old KNIL History website indicated they were mostly issued to KNIL units outside Java. The Japanese also list 31 Reising 50 submachineguns among the weapons captured on Java.

David


Hi David,

I am impressed at your info. I spent considerable time a while back, trying to track down this info of the KNIL, but could never pin the numbers or distribution down. What's your source? Are you somewhere "Dutch?"

nuyt
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by nuyt » 15 May 2009 23:47

That info is correct, though not complete.

My research resulted in estimates of DELIVERED weapons in Feb 1942 to the East Indies

200 hmg .50
2200 mmg (.30, Vickers US, Vickers AUS, Vickers Borsumij, Vickers 6,5 mm, Fiat, Schwartslose, Hotchkiss)
2600 lmg (Madsen, Bren, Italian, Lewis of three different origins, modified .30)
4500 smg (2420 Schmeisser, 1500-1900 Thompson, Reisings)
2000 sar (Johnson)

Various reports, Marten & De Vries books, archives, studies, books

For artillery weapons see the Overvalwagen Forum

David Reasoner
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by David Reasoner » 16 May 2009 04:08

Ardee wrote:Hi David,

I am impressed at your info. I spent considerable time a while back, trying to track down this info of the KNIL, but could never pin the numbers or distribution down. What's your source? Are you somewhere "Dutch?"


Ardee, not at all. I am located in Kentucky, in the United States.

Unfortunately, my sources are all secondary ones, much of my info on the KNIL was gleaned from Stellan Bojerud's superb KNIL History website (sadly MSN has pulled the plug on its group service, including Mr. Bojerud's site) and his posts on various forums. Nuyt and his Overvalwagens forum is of course an excellent source, and the archives of the old Pacific War forum also had a great deal of KNIL-related information.

David

YAN
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by YAN » 18 May 2009 13:45

I wonder why the Dutch army in europe supply there troops with SMGs ?, I think when I look at the TO&Es in europe at this time, that no country equipped there armies with SMGs, even the Germans and the French only had a few by 1940 and the British did not like the thought of supplying there troops with a extra calibre of ammo they would rather use the rifle as there main strike weapon.

Ardee
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by Ardee » 18 May 2009 15:30

Thank you, David.

I wonder why the Dutch army in europe supply there troops with SMGs ?


I think you mis-typed something here, Yan. The Dutch European Army had none-to-few SMGs. The French had issued SMGs top their elite forces and 2nd-line troops, and were preparing the production of SMGs for their main line troops when they ran out of time. I am not as familiar with German use, but I would question the statement the Germans had only "a few" in 1940.

YAN
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by YAN » 19 May 2009 13:28

Hi Ardee, you are right about the Dutch I did mess up my post, about the Frence MAS SMG, was it a common weapon in 1940 I know the French were going to put into mas-production, but how many did reach the normal first line infantry men. why I said about the Germans having a few SMGs was that during the Polish campagne it was vary rare to find any SMGs in the infantry companies, I think that the Bergman was more common amonge some troops, but I am a novice here so I could be wrong.
Yan.

Ardee
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by Ardee » 19 May 2009 16:02

Yan, I don't have any facts or figures to back it up, but the impression I have is that first-line troops did not get any SMGs. The MAS 38 was not a common weapon - although adopted in '38, there were delays in production. The French did use other SMGs however, including Ermas and Thompsons, and probably others as well. Sorry, but I don't know the numbers for them, either. As I said, distribution of SMGs was AFAIK limited to elite and second-line forces (e.g., police units). Even among these troops, I don't know if they were "common." I do remember reading that the French had "completed" their distribution to these two classes of troops, but without knowing what the original plans were for the distribution of SMGS, that doesn't mean much.
Last edited by Ardee on 20 May 2009 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

David Reasoner
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Re: Dutch sub machine guns

Post by David Reasoner » 19 May 2009 20:19

From David Lehmann's post of French weaponry on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=66044&p=744033

"2) SMGs AVAILABILITY :

ALL the SMGs used by the French Army in 1940 :

French origin
PM MAS 38 : 1958
PM STA mle 1924 : 1200
PM Petter mle 1939 : 50
PM ETVS : 50

Foreign origin
MP 28 : 1000
MP 34 : 200
EMP : 3250
Steyr : about 50
Suomi M/31 : 150
Thompson 1921/1928 : 3000

The MAS38 had been developed but not really put into production in time for the 1940 campaign. It was thus rare, with only individual weapons seeing service rather than systematic issue to particular unit types. Used by Germans under the name MP 722(f).

The EMP is the most common SMG used by the French Army in 1939-40. They actually were seized from Spanish Republican troops at the end of the Spanish Civil War. 3250 MPE were counted but due to lack of magazines only about 1000-1500 were issued. The most common place to find this weapon was with the Corps Francs.

Most of the 3,000 delivered Thompson Mle1921 SMGs remained surprisingly in armories or were only tested in Morocco during 1940. They were only issued occasional in May/June 1940 or delivered to military police units (Gendarmes that fought on the Loire River for example). The Thompson SMGs were for example also used by the Laffly W15T CC tank destroyer crews (126 SMGs issued to the 14 self-propelled anti-tank batteries) and apparently by several AA units. They were more largely distributed the Vichy French troops in 1941."

David

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