Dr. Klietmann

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Ken Jasper
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Post by Ken Jasper » 20 Nov 2002 19:10

Matt, I can't answer you questions as I do not have the original dosumentaion nor copies there of. Just some food for thought, I believe that Kleitmann has been discredited recently as a maker of fakes, as was his wife, a make of fake award boxes.

WCSTUMP
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Post by WCSTUMP » 21 Nov 2002 06:01

Ken Jasper wrote:Matt, I can't answer you questions as I do not have the original dosumentaion nor copies there of. Just some food for thought, I believe that Kleitmann has been discredited recently as a maker of fakes, as was his wife, a make of fake award boxes.


Despite what was said on another thread, on anther forum, by an base idiot under the name of "Fred Konig", Dr. Klietmann was never factually proven to have produced the first fake item. His wife sold restrikes of the Iron Cross series, made on war time Godet dies, and admitted to selling "museum copies". However, strong speculation, but only speculation, points to Mrs. Klietmann and her husband of having various items reproduced by the firm of Rudolf Souval and other minor firms in the post war years. However, to this date, no factual evidence has been offered to prove any speculative theories of fakery by either party. the law provided that one can't slander or liable the dead, so if any such proof can be presented, the presented need not fear a civil suit for slander or liable.

Colin Davie
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Post by Colin Davie » 21 Nov 2002 13:51

There will never be a court case with Klietmann and his wife in the dock for selling fakes, and for that reason there is no need for fingerprints or any other "proof".

Where I come from i.e. the street hearsay works just fine as long as the people doing the talking know what they are talking about.

I myself will never trust anything written by that man, there is no smoke without fire.

I'm surprised a couple who owned the firm of Godet in Berlin would require to go all the way to Austria to have Souval manufacture copy items, especially when employees of Godet are kicking around with idle hands.

C

WCSTUMP
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I WON'T ATTEMPT TO CHANGE ANYONE'S MIND. BELIEVE IT OR NOT

Post by WCSTUMP » 21 Nov 2002 18:31

Being a former law enforcement officer I have spent many hours in the court room. There "street hearsay" isn't admissible. "Street talk makes for good investigative leads, but nothing more. As per people who personally knew Dr. Klietmann, I have met very few today still active in our hobby. I hear a lot of criticism from a lot of people, but 99% of them ever met the man or know little factual first hand information about him. It is easy to criticize and downgrade a man's reputation if he is dead and can't defend himself. Dr. Klietmann was just a man, not perfect in any means of the word, but he was one of the most knowledgeable men in the field of order, medals and decorations of the world of the last century. It is very sad for anyone to not trust anything written by the man. In my opinion the man has received a "bum rap" from people who are ignorant or criticize him and his work for ulterior motives or personal gain.

As per the post-war firm of Godet, it was nothing like the firm operating pre 1945. Mrs. Klietmann's Godet was a mere retail store compared to the original operation. On the other hand, the firm of Rudolf Souval remained virtually intact after the war and operated as a retail sales outlet and sub contractor for many smaller operation throughout Germany and Europe and the world for that matter. I personally know that Mrs. Klietmann sold many items produced by the firm of Souval as I purchased many items from both in the 1960's and 1970's.

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Matt Gibbs
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knowlege

Post by Matt Gibbs » 22 Nov 2002 12:38

I don't want to speculate on any individual cases here but it seems that many times on the forum many people have talked about those whom 'they would never trust again'. :(
This usually stems from discovering something about them. Does this always mean that everything they have written or said is wrong..?
8O
I have never read any of Dr Kleitmann's work so I am not going to comment on it, but the point I would like to make is that when a dealer appears to have made a "mistake" of some kind the collecting community is always ready to point the finger.
This is generally to show everyone is not perfect - and everyone can be taken for a ride, [both collector and dealer] but is does seem that collectors always comiserate over buying a fake item and thereby admit that they themselves are not infallable and yet dealers seem to get different treatment, they are perceived in such a way they are not allowed to make mistakes. Whilst I agree continual errors are a problem sometimes the finger being pointed and the word spread can ruin someone's buisness when they have made one genuine error.
With this type of communication medium there always seems to be more bad news about dealers than good but perhaps I don't read enough success stories..? :?
I think it must be very very hard work for those who do deal in this field nowadays!! :D

Regards
Matt Gibbs

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DanCz
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Post by DanCz » 22 Nov 2002 13:19

Very wise words indeed from Messers Stump and Gibbs.

I heartily recommend Kleitmanns books - if you are fortunate enough to see them - then buy them. They contain a wealth of information and photographs.

Contrary to popular belief, there are no experts out there - every last one of us is fallable. The best we can really offer is an opinion based on experience - our own and those of others. I have collected for nearly 30 now and I still make absolute howlers - its all part of the fun of collecting. Hopefully I make fewer mistakes thesedays. But I remember back to the late sixties when there was very few reference books available but an awful lot of Third Reich material on the market - much of which has since turned out to be wrong. Interestingly, some of this stuff is regularly offered guaranteed genuine pre May 1945 manufacture on so-called "reputable" sites. I know myself this is wrong and I have examples in my black museum but who is going to believe a collector's word ?

What would happen if our friend in Hamburg turned out to be a purveyor of fakes !!!

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Matt Gibbs
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Wise

Post by Matt Gibbs » 22 Nov 2002 14:35

Dan;
Well, in the same way Bill won't admit to being an expert, I don't want to admit to being wise :D
I might have to read some more on Mr Kleitmann etc but I think it will have to wait awhile until I have exhausted a stack of other books I want to read!

Regards

Matt Gibbs

WCSTUMP
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LEST WE FORGET

Post by WCSTUMP » 22 Nov 2002 16:41

I have a rather large and extensive research books and while some are rated worthless by some I have found that all have some amount of creditable information in them. What one needs to do is look in the credits of most any reference book written in the last 30 years and you will find one name listed in every one. That name is Dr. Kurt G. Klietmann. That is the legacy of this pioneer researcher.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 22 Nov 2002 17:11

Matt,

I definately agree with Matts' comments above.

/Marcus

Colin Davie
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Post by Colin Davie » 22 Nov 2002 17:32

Where has anyone said a dealer can't make an honest mistake?

Jesus Christ, GET REAL!!!!

You guys are telling me your wife could be punting Godet marked KCs and oakleaves, yes, marked EXACTLY as they were during the 3rd Reich and it is concievable you would'nt know?

I like to know what my wife is up to, yes sir.

If he is such a saint why did he keep his relationship with his wife secret?

Bill your opinion of Klietmann seems to change from week to week, one week he has been dishonest with you and other weeks, like this one, the sun shines from his backside.

Now you try to claim all the speculation regarding Klietmann stems from Fred Konig, no my freind I don't think so and well you know it.

Where did you first hear of Klietmanns possible involment in the manufacture of Army balloon badges among others?

From Fred Konig?

C

Colin Davie
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Post by Colin Davie » 22 Nov 2002 17:59

There was an interesting thread on GDCOM regarding the tank badge of the Condor Legion, the issue of Klietmanns involvement with the manufacture and distribution of fake awards was discussed in detail, Bill you were a wealth of information, however bizarrely your posts have all disappeared from the thread, you are a moderator there yes?

Here is the thread for the few that did,nt read it, a general idea can still be gleaned from pages 3, 4, 5.

http://daggers.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic? ... 9783021486

I notice you also removed your admission of buying loads of post war original die copies of KCs and Oakleaves from Klietmanns wife, the ones that "Would fool Adolf Hitler himself".

Of course being the champion of fake detection you still have all these perfect copies in your possession right?

They are'nt all in collectors collections as real are they?

No of course not.

Blame everything on Fred Konig, why not.

C

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 22 Nov 2002 18:40

These posts were moved from the "Gau Essen commemorative badge" thread.

/Marcus

WCSTUMP
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DR. KLIETMANN QUESTIONS

Post by WCSTUMP » 22 Nov 2002 22:13

I will try again to try to explain the controversy concerning Dr. K. G. Klietmann the researcher and scholar, his wife's ownership of the former war time firm of Godet and the claims that they made, had made and sold reproduction medals. My opinions of the Klietmann's down not change from week to week as Colin stated. The story about the Klietmanns is rather complex and even I don't know all about their lives and business. All I can do is tell what I factually know, have found out, and try to not speculate.

Dr. K. G. Klietmann was born in 1910. He worked in the Orders Chancellery during W.W.II. In what official capacity I never knew. He was a well established world authority of orders, medals and decoration of the world, an established author on the subject, and was the and Director of the Scientific Research Study of Order and Awards. He was so revered as a world authority that the German Government awarded him the "Bundesverdienst Kreuz". He was noted as a man who would freely assist any serious student of the subject by sharing information that he had accumulated during a lifetime of research and study. In the later years, as the interest increased in the collector community, he charged a fee for his services. For some reason he never charged me the first penny for the information he supplied to me over the years which is priceless today. In retrospect I can see that Dr. Klietmann had his faults, but he was an old man in his 60's when I first corresponded with him, had lived through a most tragic period in the history of his county and the world, lived n Berlin and most likely had a hard time just surviving the war and getting back to a life or normalcy. what he had to do to make ends meet we will never know. He was just human, provided a lot of good information to the world and may have been like the kid with mud on his hands at one time.

As per his wife and Godet I never knew why Dr. Klietmann never referred to her as his wife. I must can only assume it was to keep the two operations, the Orders Institute and Godet, to appear to be separately owned and operated businesses. His postition as an noted authority, an "expert" in the field, might look to the public as being counter productive with a wife in the retail business of selling order and medals. I never knew their reasoning, nor did I ever ask. I can say that as far as I personally know, Mrs. Klietmann sold the Knights Crosses, Oak Leaves and Oak Leaves and Swords as either left over stock from the war or as "museum copies". She never sold any reproduction, to my knowledge, as anything other than what they were. I guess the "museum" embellishment justified in here eyes the copies were more than just copies, not fakes. However, I am speculating and don't like to do so. I purchased many of the items that had been struck from the war time dies post war from Mrs. Klietmann. I was a dealer/collector at that time and bought and sold them as "museum copies". As I stated on the German Dagger thread, they were so good that they would fool Adolf Hitler himself. Today many are in collections as original and there is no way to determine if war time or post war produced. As per your question Mr. Davis, I have none in my collection and tend to detect a sinister tone to your remark which I will overlook. Just remember, if you see a "900 21" marked Oak Leaves or Oak Leaves and Swords offered for sale, NEVER pay a big price unless it comes with an iron clad province.

I mentioned that Dr. Klietmann was not all to gather honest with me about the Army Balloon Observer's badge. That is true, but I never could absolutely prove that he was involved with the reproduction of the fakes. He had access to a photograph of the rejected design of the badge, and knew about the approved design matrix in 1968 when I inquired about the badge. He gave me the photo of the rejected badge design and yet had already published a paper on the approved design in 1955. That through me off for years in trying to solve the mystery surrounding of the badge.

For Mr. Davis I must explain the "Fred Konig" interjection into the thread on the German dagger Forum concerning General Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma and the gold panzer badge reported to be purchased from the von Thoma family and owned by "Fred Konig". EVERY WORD written by "Fred Konig" was either a lie or twisted truth. The wild fictitious story was written by Roger F. Honts. No such person exists by the Name of "Fred Konig". Roger Honts has never met Dr. Klietmann, his wife or bought the gold Panzer badge from the von Thoma family. The twisted truth comes into his story because I told Honts all about my involvement with the Klietmanns and he tool that information and manipulated and incorporated it into his evil twisted lies.

I have the deleted posts Colin refers to from the von Thoma article on the German Dagger Forum. I deleted them, as a moderator and under the authority of the owner of the forum, when he investigated and proved that "Konig" was Honts. There was nothing "bizarre" about why the post disappeared. The thread was about General von Thoma and his awards and documents, NOT to discuss Dr. Klietmann, fakes and frauds of the Third Reich and me having to defend myself and my article from Roger F. Honts. Having the three pages out of the original 10 point out to review is ever more confusing for anyone not availed to the entire thread. However, everyone knows that Roger F. Honts is a fake dealer and liar, hacker and all around pest. I have one of his posts on the thread referred to talking about fakes. I think everyone will get a kick out of the crazy and lying mind of Roger F. Honts. I will address any other question concerning the Klietmanns upon request.

TOOT TOOT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to consider myself a silent collector. I have no reason to "thump" my chest, or gingle my chains saying I am a "know it all". I detest those that actually think they do.

I absolutely cannot stand fakes. There is no need for them in our field of collecting, and certainly no reason for them to be produced. They will only end up as originals someday and in someones coveted collection as such.

As far as Mr. Stump saying he "learns something new each day", I highly doubt this. My granny also had a saying that you should "listen with you ears and not you mouth". Have you ever heard of that one Mr. Stump?...doubtful.

The document shown I have seen before. It is a very nice reproduction. Notice the "HANS ERIC VOSS" name. It should be in RED lettering and different in color from the rest of the document. EVEN in a black and white photo this should show up as a different color of grayscale. Notice the same is not at all different from the rest of the documents text as that was black. The name in this scan is 100% black and incorrect. Did you purchase this with the von Thomm'a document? Not a bad cache of fake documents.

I would be very interested in seeing these "Ailsby" copys. Then again, I would also like to see anything else that you have had reproduced Mr. Stump. Have you ever tried to make a Uboat badge with Diamonds?

Fred Konig

Mariscal Rommel
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Re: Dr. Klietmann

Post by Mariscal Rommel » 26 Jan 2019 11:59

Hi all.

I introduce myself:

I am Jesús Franco, a Spanish collector specializing in German diplomatic material and especially the Order of the German Eagle.I have written two books dedicated to the Order of the German Eagle deepening the details of this decoration:

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/MariscalRommel

I found this thread because I was given this link by a veteran vendor and collector from my country who claims to know Weitze and other well-known vendors in our hobby.

This collector states that Weitze told him that many copies of the Order of the German Eagle marked "900 21" were produced after 1945 and sold as vintage originals by the wife of Dr. KG Klietmann who was the daughter of Godet and continued to sell decorations after from the war.
In my point of view, this is not true and there is no doubt for me that the copies of the Order of the German Eagle by Godet marked "900 21" are originals of the time but he insists that this is so and that several dealers well known in collecting as Weitze.

After reading the opinion of WCSTUMP I thought I understood that this is not the case ... Godet's daughter sold specimens of oak leaves and knight's crosses marked "900 21" not as fakes or copies but as original production surpluses or as museum copies but nothing is indicated that did the same with the Order of the German Eagle

What do you think of this?

rudel
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Re: Dr. Klietmann

Post by rudel » 29 Jan 2019 13:12

Jesus, the question is: have you found anything indicating Godet did NOT sell any post-war produced DAO or is it merely an opinion?

cheers
Peter

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