SS Evening Dress Metal Skull Breast Badge

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NDNtrooper
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Post by NDNtrooper » 19 Oct 2003 21:09

There is a second example pictured in the Beaver books that is not on the Ribbentrop tunic. I am not being rude just blunt honest,one example is shown as the "only known" original no other facts are presented as a basis for argument.While I realize Mr.Stump you are a highly regarded authority on Third Reich medals and awards and most of the time respect your opinions, however I feel you are a bit too quick to the draw at times.If you doubt Mr.Finley sold this to your friend give him a call and find out the truth.I wont name another well respected SS authority who offered substantial money for the piece and was upset when it was sold at a higher price to someone else.The story is true and we are not "trolling".We just happen to be friends and neighbors who feel that some of the fake stories are concocted to mislead collectors especially about SS metal devices.I was actually not to happy that my friend posted the reverse of the badge and the attachment device.It is now public knowledge.I gained nothing from Mr. Finleys transaction except to see one up close and examine it prior to its sale.It is pictured also in the MAX sho program in Wolfe-Hardins advertisement.Show me another fake like it.

WCSTUMP
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Post by WCSTUMP » 19 Oct 2003 21:52

Sir I have only seen a couple of these that I know to be original. The one I presented came on von Ribbentrop's SS Dinner Dress Uniform. I have never seen an original produced in aluminum. They are so rare that unless one came with a province I wouldn't touch it with a hot poker. I am not specialized in the study of SS artifacts and I am not saying the badge your friend is fake, but I should have been more specific and said it would not be for my collection. In the photo scan below is the group of uniforms of Ribbentrop.
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NDNtrooper
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Post by NDNtrooper » 19 Oct 2003 23:32

The Ribbentrop tunic is pictured in the same book with a close up of the badge you posted.There is another in the book of a TK mess dress tunic from an Oberbayern officer with a badge on it as well. I am usually a skeptic myself and had never seen a real one before in my life.My only reason for believing it to be real was the sudden frenzy to buy the piece by recognized experts after it was posted on the GDC for comment. I do not exagerate when I use the word frenzy.The fist offer started at $2500 it was sold for $4000 and a cap in trade.I cannot pretend that I know for a fact it was real just that it was very much in demand after its discovery.Ive yet to see another fake like it appear for sale.Still if we do see them after this the fakers will need to know the markings on the badge and where they are placed.

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NDNtrooper
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Post by NDNtrooper » 19 Oct 2003 23:36

The Ribbentrop tunic is pictured in the same book with a close up of the badge you posted.There is another in the book of a TK mess dress tunic from an Oberbayern officer with a badge on it as well. I am usually a skeptic myself and had never seen a real one before in my life.My only reason for believing it to be real was the sudden frenzy to buy the piece by recognized experts after it was posted on the GDC for comment. I do not exagerate when I use the word frenzy.The fist offer started at $2500 it was sold for $4000 and a cap in trade.I cannot pretend that I know for a fact it was real just that it was very much in demand after its discovery.Ive yet to see another fake like it appear for sale.Still if we do see them after this the fakers will need to know the markings on the badge and where they are placed.I know that SS metal cap skulls and eagles were made from differing materials why wouldnt these be also,after all they were not sactioned decorations,just an accoutrement used at the time that have now become rare and prized.

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Post by WCSTUMP » 20 Oct 2003 00:10

It is quite possible that the devises were made of other than fine silver. However, von Ribbentrop's status in the Nazi Party, granting him SS General's rank, would indicate him having first class uniforms and insignia. When I first purchased the orders and medals of von Ribbentrop, I examined the entire lot from his dagger to cuff links. I couldn't afford the entire lot, but did come close to buying the SS Dinner dress outfit. I settled for the SS cuff links and a extra named vest with SS buttons. However, that was a long time ago and it doesn't surprise me in the least that people are willing to pay unrealistic prices for SS items.I am not doubting that you got $4K for them either. Also, I had an SS officer's dress tunic and visor cap who was in charge of the SS School. The cap insignia was 800 fine silver. All I know about the SS Dinner Dress insignia is from Ribbentrop's and another in a collection just like it in Germany.

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NDNtrooper
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Post by NDNtrooper » 20 Oct 2003 01:37

My apologies to you Sir,you are the Elder of the hobby and a truly wise man when it comes to research.I have just been on edge lately seems alot of people want to see failure.I shouldnt have included you in that lot you do more to help than most out there.Thanks for your input it is an area that needs more studiy.

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Post by WCSTUMP » 20 Oct 2003 02:41

I also apologize for my sometimes over defensive remarks. I am just an old man who has out lived his time. I am also very stubborn at times when I think I am right. However, I have had to eat the old bitter crow over my errors many times in the past 50 years. I probably will have to again if I live long enough. I have seen so many of these marked RZM and GES GERSH and other marking and all were aluminum. I just wish we had more documented originals to study. With the SS items being faked so bad for so long it is hard to tell what is good and what is bad.

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Brig
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Post by Brig » 20 Oct 2003 13:40

excuse me if this has been covered, but why is it such a hard badge to find? I always thought it was a fantasy piece associated with the evening jacket

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Post by WCSTUMP » 20 Oct 2003 16:06

Brig wrote:excuse me if this has been covered, but why is it such a hard badge to find? I always thought it was a fantasy piece associated with the evening jacket


The badge is so difficult to acquire in its original form because there was so few produced or worn. Only high officials wore this devise at special dress affairs.

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Macmedal
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Post by Macmedal » 20 Oct 2003 19:49

Thanks guys for toning down the posts. It is a fascinating subject and as commented already, all too easy to fake. Thanks for the input.

Nick

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NDNtrooper
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Post by NDNtrooper » 21 Oct 2003 01:14

The SS evening dress "tuxedo" was not only used by high ranking officials.Mike Beavers book has a photo on pg591 of Hugo Krass as a young Untersturmfuhrer (2nd Lt.) wearing the evening dress.Accompanying this photo are pictures of J.Toncars Ostmark Totenkopf untersturmfuhrers evening dress with the metal skull device.Also Von Ribbentrops,attributed to David Delich.I suspect these were worn by officers who probably served on the staff of higher officials.They would be worn only on special occaision.I imagine very few if not just the two pictured survived the War.

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Post by WCSTUMP » 21 Oct 2003 03:52

Most interesting. I would say that at high officials would have an aid, "batman" and they would have to be dressed in evening dress to accompany their superior to a special affair. Could it be that the lower ranking staff officers had devises produced in material other than fine silver?

Ulfhedin
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Re: SS Evening Dress Metal Skull Breast Badge

Post by Ulfhedin » 08 Mar 2020 01:42

I have an original Waffen SS 3rd Panzer Division Totenkopf Officer's Evening Dress Badge from 1939. If the moderator would allow it and provide instruction I can provide photos.

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rlimike
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Re: SS Evening Dress Metal Skull Breast Badge

Post by rlimike » 08 Mar 2020 18:28

Ulfhedin wrote:
08 Mar 2020 01:42
I have an original Waffen SS 3rd Panzer Division Totenkopf Officer's Evening Dress Badge from 1939. If the moderator would allow it and provide instruction I can provide photos.
I'm not a mod but you can Post it.
Mike

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Mark in Cleveland, Tn.
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Re: SS Evening Dress Metal Skull Breast Badge

Post by Mark in Cleveland, Tn. » 09 Mar 2020 02:30

rlimike wrote:
08 Mar 2020 18:28
Ulfhedin wrote:
08 Mar 2020 01:42
I have an original Waffen SS 3rd Panzer Division Totenkopf Officer's Evening Dress Badge from 1939. If the moderator would allow it and provide instruction I can provide photos.
I'm not a mod but you can Post it.
Mike
Bahaha on this posting,willing to bet a 20 bill against anyone 2 dollars this is a BS post to be from that new guy

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