Danzig Cross

Discussions on Axis awards and decorations. Hosted by John G & William Kramer.
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Hassemilitaria
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Danzig Cross

Post by Hassemilitaria » 31 Jan 2003 22:38

Are the Danzig cross made without any market or with?
I have heard they are both of it. :idea:

Raz
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Post by Raz » 31 Jan 2003 23:26

Market? You mean maker?
I've seen 1st and 2nd class crosses with and without maker marks. The only maker mark I
have seen is Hülse-Berlin and supposedly these guys were the sole manufacturere of these
awards.

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Hassemilitaria
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Danzig Cross

Post by Hassemilitaria » 01 Feb 2003 00:26

Thanks!
Yes I mean maker :lol:
I am not so good in english :oops:

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WAR LORD
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Post by WAR LORD » 01 Feb 2003 14:20

The Danzig cross 1st and 2nd class is marked with BvA Hulser. In the case of the 2nd class this can be raised or stamped in. There is an occasion when the cross was presented on a medal ribbon bar and it had a veriant maker.

The unmarked versions are considered to have been produced in the 60's in Berlin as Musseum copies. These had no Swastika so could be ligitamatly produced along with other imperial items.

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WAR LORD
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Post by WAR LORD » 01 Feb 2003 15:05

The medal ribbon bar with Danzig cross 2nd class marked L/12. Got a bit muddeled. Question what do we think of the Luftwaffe close combat bar?
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matthew4108
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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by matthew4108 » 11 May 2018 18:39

Here are another two outfits offering those decorations. Namely Godet & Juncker.
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Re:

Post by matthew4108 » 11 Feb 2020 17:38

WAR LORD wrote:
01 Feb 2003 14:20
The unmarked versions are considered to have been produced in the 60's in Berlin as Musseum copies. These had no Swastika so could be ligitamatly produced along with other imperial items.
Just like any other medal of the period- the unmarked versions are just that- unmarked versions of same medal. There are unmarked post war produced S&L crosses (S&L is not a known supplier of same pre 1945) but there are legitimate unmarked Hulse pre 1945 pieces, just like there are unmarked Junckers, Godets and so on.

Your point no. 2 is also wrong. The Danzig Crosses could not be legitimately produced post WW2 since they were decorations of a NSDAP and not a civil service or Wehrmacht medals and as such not included in the handful decorations permitted to be produced and worn by the Ordengesetz of 1957.

Were they produced? As I mentioned above, yes, they were but so were all kinds of other, swastika bearing pieces from among others- Souval & S&L.

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WAR LORD
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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by WAR LORD » 11 Feb 2020 19:52

The point is and I am sure tat this is not lost on you, Mathew, the German order proscribing NSDAP awards covered the Federal Government. The awards of Danzig were under the Legislation of Poland. Thus the Danzig cross and other awards of Danzig were the auspice of the Polish Government.

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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by matthew4108 » 11 Feb 2020 20:56

WAR LORD wrote:
11 Feb 2020 19:52
The point is and I am sure tat this is not lost on you, Mathew, the German order proscribing NSDAP awards covered the Federal Government. The awards of Danzig were under the Legislation of Poland. Thus the Danzig cross and other awards of Danzig were the auspice of the Polish Government.
So was Silesia yet Silesian Eagle medal was covered by the Federal Government in its 1957 Ordensgesetz. What's your point again?

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WAR LORD
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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by WAR LORD » 12 Feb 2020 10:49

It is very simple, Danzig was an independent state. This as I am sure you know was set up after the first world war. Thus their awards are not technically German, a Nazi government was only brought about latterly, but this did not change their international status. They held the Danzig arms as their centeral motive. Silecia, was an integeral part of Germany until being ceded to the New Poland.

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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by matthew4108 » 12 Feb 2020 11:06

Both Silesia and Danzig were part of Poland after ww2. So either it had to do with the legislative powers of Polish Govt. that you claimed it did above and lack of same powers of the Federal Govt. Of Germany, or it didnt.. it can't be both. If it's not, why even bring it up?

The part of Silesia being integral part of Germany is also wrong. It was as much an integral part of Germany as Austria- at some point they walked in and made themselves at home.
Do you think Austria is an integral part of Germany, Chris?

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WAR LORD
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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by WAR LORD » 12 Feb 2020 11:15

You are quite correct, both Danzig and Silesia after the Second World war were and are part of Poland. Pre Second World War Danzig was a Free State, as was FIUME. As TO Austria BEING AN INTEGERAL PART OF GERMANY, I THINK NOT.

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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by matthew4108 » 12 Feb 2020 15:08

WAR LORD wrote:
12 Feb 2020 11:15
Pre Second World War Danzig was a Free State, as was FIUME.
Wrong again. Fiume was a free state, Danzig wasn't. You repeating it over and over is not going to change it.

That is a fact.

All of this has nothing to do with the above statement of yours that Danzig Crosses (themselves NSDAP awards) could be legitimately produced post war in Germany.
They could not be. They were forbidden from being made or worn as we're the rest of what was describied as NS regime decorations.

That is another fact.

All of it had nothing to do with loss of jurisdiction by a German Government. They lost a jurisdiction over Silesia but authorised wearing a Silesian decoration.

That's yet another fact.


If we assume that their (Federal Govt. Of Germany that is) guidelines were "we will allow any territory that was an integral part of Germany before the start of hostilities and leave everything else out" then by default you'd see 1957 Anschluss medal's since Austria was part of Germany before Sept 1.1939 just like Silesia was. But you don't so that reasoning is out.

Another fact.

There exist multiple, different Hulse variants of DC2 and DC1 that are manufactured pre 1945, some are marked, some are unmarked, some have a mark included right in the verso die. We know that because some can be traced back to 1945. Then there are original crosses by different, multiple makers. Then there are fakes produced by bone fide medal makers. And at the end we have the home made products by various enterprising individuals ranging from semi-good attempts right down to those that no doubt ended up being the cause of lead poisoning.

BTW, your figures of 256 and 88 awardees or whatever your crystal ball told you are as true as 15 awardees of the Danzig Einwohnenwehr Shield.

They're not.

But that's a discussion for another time. So are the original DCs first class you claim are fake on your blog. So are the Alter Kampfer badges also incorrectly presented there along with multiple fakes presented as real badges.

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WAR LORD
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Re: Danzig Cross

Post by WAR LORD » 12 Feb 2020 20:34

might I draw your attention to this : -

Long before the era of the Third Reich, Danzig, a port on the Baltic Sea placed between east and West Prussia, in a territory, which is now part of Poland, had enjoyed the prestigious status of a free city state. It functioned as an independent region, above the control of her neighbouring states, and in earlier times when it was known as Gdansk, it traded in the north German rivalries of the Hanseatic League.

At the end of the First World War the Paris Peace Conference created The Free City of Danzig as a compromise among conflicting interpretations of Wilson’s Thirteenth Point. The commission that considered the Polish question concluded that “a free and secure access to the sea” could only be assured to Poland by allowing her to annex Danzig, along with most of the German provinces of Posen and West Prussia. Wilson’s stipulation that the territories taken from Germany be “indisputably Polish” in population would have to be ignored. On 19 March 1919, Jules Cambon of France presented to the Supreme Council of the Peace Conference the commission’s report. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, promptly objected stating the report did not take into account the principle of national self-determination. Danzig was unquestionably German. Could any German government be expected to sign a treaty that so flagrantly violated the Fourteen Points? The task fell to James W. Headlam-Morley and Sidney Mezes, of the British and American delegations of orchestrating a solution to the Danzig problem. Danzig was to be autonomous, with Danzigers being assured that they would be allowed to govern themselves free of Polish interference. Poland was to receive full guarantees regarding access to the sea. The Supreme Council decided that Danzig, Zoppot, and the surrounding rural districts should become an independent international entity under the supervision of the League of Nations, and under articles 100 through 108 of the Treaty of Versailles, Danzig became a free city.

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Post by matthew4108 » 12 Feb 2020 22:47

WAR LORD wrote:
12 Feb 2020 20:34
The Supreme Council decided that Danzig, Zoppot, and the surrounding rural districts should become an independent international entity under the supervision of the League of Nations, and under articles 100 through 108 of the Treaty of Versailles, Danzig became a free city.
It either was or it wasn't a free state before being annexed into the Reich. It was not. It was a free city under the supervision of League of Nations. As noted above.

Draw my attention to what? Your theory that it's possible to be kind of pregnant?

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