Dutch SS Sport Badge

Discussions on Axis awards and decorations. Hosted by John G & William Kramer.
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WAR LORD
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by WAR LORD » 27 Mar 2014 00:58

these are the copies that we see

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rlimike
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by rlimike » 27 Mar 2014 23:42

WAR LORD wrote:these are the copies that we see
Yes ... you are correct.

Wehrwirts1
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 01 Jun 2019 04:08

Warlord,
On different forums, These Dutch SS Sports Badges have always been declared, authoritatively, and beyond any doubt, to be post-war fakes.

However, I’ve also seen this statement, many times, and I quote you:
“This badge is a copy. The actual award was not produced. There was however a few of the award books printed. These are EXTREEMLY RARE. “

I have seen this at least three times from various people. They all say: The Badges were not produced, but it is somehow known that The Award Booklets WERE produced, but they are EXTREMELY RARE. I have seen the award booklet pictures, and they do indeed depict an award that looks exactly like all of the fake awards on the forums.
My question is: How Do You Know That The Booklet WAS produced in very small numbers, but No prototype badge was produced?
Why is a prototype award booklet beyond a doubt Real, and yet a prototype Badge is somehow known to be absolutely impossible, and how do you know it was never produced? How do you definitely know an award booklet was definitely produced, in extremely small numbers, but absolutely no prototype awards were produced? Where is your proof? Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Just trust me on this one, I’m right and you’re wrong?

Please enlighten us.

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Wehrwirts1
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 01 Jun 2019 04:44

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matthew4108
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by matthew4108 » 01 Jun 2019 19:14

Wehrwirts1 wrote:
01 Jun 2019 04:08
Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Just trust me on this one?
Last time someone did that, the discussion lasted for well over 40 pages. Didn't work very well for the trusting party, I recall..

A prototype production is another step on the road to a (mass) production of any officially sanctioned insignia, medal and/or badge. At least in overwhelming majority of planned (as opposed to improvised) cases. A physical mocking is needed for the future piece(s) to be looked at & be approved and/or improved or changed as needed. Something to go on, to be used by the officials before the final product is made in greater numbers. It typically follows the design/sketch stage but precedes a full production stage.

It's not an anomaly bur rather a norm.

As such, I would be very surprised if no prototypes of this badge were ever made. Never seen one that I would be comfortable with but there are lots of things I have not seen yet they exist.
Personally, I hope some survived as it is an handsomely designed piece.

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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 01 Jun 2019 22:44

Matthew,
Thank you, very well said!
That is the only point I wanted to make, prototypes are not only possible with this (or any other) badge, they are standard operating procedure in the eventual production of any badge.
If the makers took time to make the prototype award booklet, then they were taking the award seriously, and the prototype badge itself is more likely to exist, in my opinion, than the award booklet.

The badge with the sword was at least 3 - 4 components.

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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 01 Jun 2019 22:55

A multi piece badge would take time and experimental production would be necessary to get the process right.

If the prototype award booklets are extremely rare, and accepted as genuine, then I too hold out hope that a prototype badge will one day emerge.
It will take some dexterous detective work, and no doubt a lot of comparisons, but I too hope one day the prototype badge(s) is found.
Thanks Matthew for your voice of reason here.

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matthew4108
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by matthew4108 » 01 Jun 2019 23:48

Those that might've been involved in creating those badges did not need practice to get the process right. They'd know their craft very well indeed. All they needed was a design, if that, as most of the time, they were also the same people that would design many of the pieces they produced.
On a grand scheme of things, this badge was, IMO, on a lower end of a difficulty spectrum where the production was concerned.

I don't think an original would be produced as a two piece (wreath and runes separately) just to be hard soldered together, especially if the finish on both was to be the same. It would be done as a single stamping unless the design called for a different finish on different parts (ex. Luft qualification badges). The thickness is what I would consider within range for an uniform die stamping, especially with runes sitting half way through the cross section of the badge- a perfect spot for a one piece die stamping/forging production method.

On the other hand, and depending on how exquisite the piece was to be, there would or could be multiple prototypes, slightly different. For example there are at least 6 different prototypes of 'Für Kunst und Wissenschaft" badges, 4 of the SS service medals, which was as much of a mass production as it got. Even the so called flower medals had few different designs that survived, never mind how many more were designed/produced.

Sadly, most of those will forever stay unknown to a wider collecting community.
Last edited by matthew4108 on 02 Jun 2019 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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matthew4108
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by matthew4108 » 02 Jun 2019 00:14

One more thing that should be mentioned- In my humble opinion, the fact that there are award books in circulation that are deemed original (I presume they are, my knowledge of paper collectibles is limited), would count towards the actual prototypes of this badge existing, at least at some point in time: I don't see any printers taking a chance of printing an award book showing the badges going solely on a description of the award they're supposed to accompany.

Especially where the design is so vague as this- SS runes being surrounded by an oval wreath. With or without swords. Same with matching period news clipping (even if badges pictured are upside down). If anything, the award book would be a next step, to be designed and produced based on an existing badge, even if only a prototype one. If the book was made without the knowledge of the actual look of this award, I would think its actual design would be omitted from its cover and replaced with its title instead like many others were.

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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 02 Jun 2019 04:06

Matthew,
I have to agree with you regarding the difficulty, or ease, of producing the prototype badge, and the speed in which it could be done.
Not only would badge makers, hungry to win a contract, be more than able to rapidly produce a prototype, they would probably be on the job as quickly as possible, that is, as soon as the SS newspaper published the design, or even sooner, as soon as the rumors started circulating concerning the upcoming badge.

As far as the design, I don’t know how complex it would be.

I also sincerely must agree with you - a paper award document, with the actual drawing of the badge on the cover, seems to suggest that a physical prototype badge had been produced at that point, or why depict a non-existent badge on the cover of the award document? Especially since it could change if you printed the award document without a badge to work from? Then you would have to change the picture on the award document, a colossal waste of time.

Good points, Mathew!

Wehrwirts1
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Re: Dutch SS Sport Badge

Post by Wehrwirts1 » 05 Jun 2019 23:31

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Not NSB, the did not contol the SS!!!
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