Pilot Observer Badge by Juncker

[ibcasper]

Marcus:

For clarification purposes, the wreath and the eagle are both thin and there is no mixture of a think wreath with a thin eagle, etc.
Steve

[Marcus H]

Sorry I'm confusing the issue, in regards to you briefly mentioning the details match the pilot badge from J Angolia. You did mention the wreath was thicker on that, this being so the eagles shouldn't really exactly match, they are from a different die. Thicker wreath being post J1 production.

Kind regards,


Marcus

[ibcasper]

Marcus:
Sorry, I might have mislead you. The comparison in badges related to the type of eagle, detail of wreath, pin, hook, wing and concave properties,etc. The PO has a thin eagle on a thin wreath. The pilot badge has a thicker eagle on a thicker wreath.

Steve

[Marcus H]

No worries, I haven't explained myself very well. I try to explain my observations where as some give a synopsis of 'good' or 'bad' full stop.

The key to this hobby is knowledge and an explanation, and where a picture may speak a thousand words, in the hand is better.

I lack a lot of knowledge to my own demise, and I hope I eat my claims of fake.

I would suggest though you post this on the WHA forum where perhaps more people like John can take a look too. There are many avid Luft collectors on there, like John.

Where you call this a light weight badge, I'd call it a J1 or thin wreath as you are aware the first and early PO by Juncker.
Light I'd class as the aluminium badges, more synonmous with second and third pattern Juncker badges, these more often than not are the heavy or thicker wreath badge styles, but lighter of course in alu.

Silver badges don't even go there LOL, I'm not splitting hairs, just explaining what I may be going on about.

I truely hope I'm wrong in my judgement,

Kind regards,

Marcus

[J Temple-West]

Steve, my fears are as follows:
The wreath, on the P/O is not a known 'Juncker' pattern..
J1's (thin wreathed) are all as the one I've posted..
All early P/O eagles were of either polished metal or silver plate..
The catch if of thicker guage than that found on original badges..
The hinge is not the usual type of 'Juncker' setup..
Can't comment on the rivets until I see a close up..
The makers mark, although close, dosn't have the 'Juncker' 'L' but again I would like to see a closeup..

I' ve posted another of my J1's.. It will give you an idea as to how the silver eagle should look.. Exactly the same bird was used on early P/O's..

Hope this helps... J

[ibcasper]

J & Marcus:

Thanks for your observations. My understanding from the experts was that some of these eagles were indeed frosted.

As the wreath, eagle, pin, pin assembly, hallmark and clasp are similar to the Juncker pilot badge sold to me by Jack Angola, I would go with his expertize on these items.

I had opened up this post with questions concerning the value of a Juncker Pilot Observer badge, not as to the authenticity of this badge. I've learned in my many years in the hobby that opinions vary repeatedly on whether a piece is a fake or not.

Not having the object in your hand to judge the quality, weight and beauty of these badges makes a proper judgement all but impossible.

I would certainly debate whether many of the badges (including Js) are real or a fake. Who can say with any degree of certainty? I like you, might not have ripped these badges off of the uniform of a captured German soldier.

If not, they are all fakes??? Even Jack Angola's stuff was 100% faked?

Steve

[Marcus H]

Just for interest then here's a reproduction Juncker pilots badge, one of several.

[Marcus H]

And a Juncker PO, again one of several variations of the 'fugly' fake. These are getting better and better, they always have frosted eagles as a note. This certainly isn't one ofthe 'better' ones.

[Marcus H]

I only have small pic's of this one for now, enlarge them if you wish.

John, I can't post Neils badge even when resized and correct KB, but they are clear pic's of the obverse. reverse and side view of a J1 PO any ideas.

[J Temple-West]

Hi Steve, I have to say that it saddens me to read your comments on opinions given on your P/O.. I understand that finding out that a prized piece turns out to be a 'fake' can be somewhat demoralizing, it's happened to us all at one time or another, but a 1st pattern (thin wreathed) 'Juncker' Has been and will always be of a certain type...
As a point of reference, I direct you to Lorenzo's site where you will find a comprehensive range of Original Luftwaffe badges, including a very nice P/O..

To your original question, if asked, I would have to say, with respect, that I would not want it in my collection and think that when you've had a chance to compare your badge with a few more examples you will agree that a lesson, how ever hard, has been learnt..

http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

Warmest regards... J

[J Temple-West]

Let's see if this comes out, Marcus.. I'm sure dear Neil won't mind..

The following three images are from the N. Howes collection..

[J Temple-West]

2..

[J Temple-West]

Just to clarify, this is a text book example of a 1st Pattern (thin wreathed) Pilot/Observer badge by 'C.E Juncker' from the N. Howes collection..

Steve, the bird aside.. just compare the wreaths...

R's.. J

[ibcasper]

I'll take a look and compare my badge with these alleged originals. By the way, any opinions on one of my other Juncker badges?
Steve

[ibcasper]

Hi:
I've checked the website you mentioned and compared both the Jack Angolia badge with my early frosted PO badge. The detail of both my badges far exceeds what you have shown in your responses and the website badges look questionable.

Since I have compared the wreaths, hallmarks, eagles, feathering,etc., with the Jack Angolia original, I can only conclude that my badges are good. The website eagle feathers on the wings are very crudely formed and the hallmarks are improper. If your Junckers look like what is on that website, I think that your badge and/or badges may not be legit. Side by side with my Junckers, the quality of my badges is evident. Sorry.

Steve