Pilot Observer Badge by Juncker

Discussions on Axis awards and decorations. Hosted by John G & William Kramer.
User avatar
J Temple-West
Member
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 00:56
Location: GB..

Post by J Temple-West » 11 Jan 2004 13:59

Hi Steve, As long as you're happy with your conclusions, being the most important factor, I shall say no more on the subject, other than to say that you have been shown some of the finest, original 'Luftwaffe' badges that you will ever see... What you do with the information is up to you..

I wish you all the best with your collecting..

Warmest regards... John

ibcasper
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 00:25
Location: maryland

PO Badge

Post by ibcasper » 11 Jan 2004 15:08

John:
Thanks, best to you. I will go with acknowleged experts like Jack Angola.

Setting up a website and putting out items as originals does not necessarily make it so. That includes many dealer on the www who sell items as orignals and allege that only their stuff is the real thing.

It is a shame that the fakers have destroyed the hobby with their wares.

Steve

Bjorn
Member
Posts: 130
Joined: 25 Apr 2002 06:44
Location: Canada

Post by Bjorn » 16 Jan 2004 07:36

That PO is not like any 1st Pattern Juncker I have ever seen.

If you think that Angolia never sold a fake, you are very mistaken.

No collector I know would want that in their collection, but if you do, thats great.

Mike K
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: 12 Apr 2003 11:41
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Post by Mike K » 16 Jan 2004 09:52

Hi Steve,

Sorry about the slightly blurry pics, but could you compare your examples (Pilot and PO badges) with this badge? Are yours the same?

Regards
Mike K
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
J Temple-West
Member
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 00:56
Location: GB..

Post by J Temple-West » 16 Jan 2004 17:05

Mike, as you probably know, this is (IMHO) from the same series of 'drooped wreath' fakes that started this thread.. But what do I know.. :|

Warmest regards... John

Mike K
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: 12 Apr 2003 11:41
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Post by Mike K » 16 Jan 2004 18:01

Hi John,

About the only thing you and I disagree on in this thread is terminology - you call it a "drooped wreath fake" and I call it a "dipped wreath repro"!!

We both know that the wreath of this series of repros is based on a genuine Assmann later war wreath. We both know that the eagle in this case is cast from a genuine Juncker eagle. We both know that other genuine eagles from different makers were also cast but all were applied to the same Assmann-derived wreath. The fact that these repros have been cast from original components is what makes them dangerous. We both know that these repros were produced with markings for pretty much all makers (GWL, Deumer, Assmann, IMME, etc - ie wartime badge producing companies, as well as the odd fantasy maker like the "SOG" in a triangle marking) and that the series includes Pilot, Pilot-Observer, Observer and LW Para Badge repros. Using the same wreath but differently marked eagles is what made them initially identifiable as repros. Unfortunately Steve is not aware of these facts.

Several years ago a good friend bought a LW Para Badge from a well known US author/dealer - it had the same wreath as the badge I posted above however the eagle was cast from a genuine Juncker eagle (notched swas, etc) and marked for B&NL! He was lucky as he got his money refunded.

This type of repro has been around for at least 5 years and has been exposed elsewhere but if a newer collector reads this thread and comes to the conclusion this type of badge is actually real then they will waste a lot of money - this is my main reason for posting in this thread (my post is not meant as a personal attack on either Steve or J. Angolia). Any dealer or knowledgeable collector will be (or at least should be) aware of this repro - anybody who isn't is not someone I personally would classify as an expert (not that I believe in experts anyway).

My suggestion to Steve is not to believe you or I, nor any other collector who knows/believes this type of badge to be a repro. I'd suggest he gets it evaluated independentally by dealers with very good reputations like Bill Shea or Detlev Niemann - I think he will get a shock if he asks them how much they would pay for it, let alone produce a certificate of authenticity for it. I know I would not pay US$20 for it. Alternately, I'd challenge him to find an example of the badge type he believes to be genuine that was acquired from a German veteran. I know the styles that John attempted to highlight as genuine HAVE been obtained directly from German veterans. As an example, a Juncker first pattern (thin/light) version (CEJ marked as oppsed to fully marked - it does't matter as the same dies were used) attributed to Heinze Nacke (?sp Knoke) is even presented by Angolia in his "For Fuhrer & Fatherland" Vol 1 but the wreaths of that example and the example at the top of this thread are TOTALLY different!

Regards
Mike K

Marcus H
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 02 Jan 2004 10:52
Location: Northamptonshire, Great Britain

Post by Marcus H » 16 Jan 2004 19:00

And if I may add, my paticular fake was purchased 14 years ago now and was a incipent fake of those produced now.

Originaly they were made in the UK, and like a 'virus' has undergone evolution hence the straints that are available out there today which catch 'expert' and novice alike.

Kind regards,

Marcus

User avatar
J Temple-West
Member
Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 00:56
Location: GB..

Post by J Temple-West » 16 Jan 2004 19:01

Hi Mike... succinctly put.

R's... John

ibcasper
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 00:25
Location: maryland

Pilot Badge

Post by ibcasper » 17 Jan 2004 04:07

Hi Mike:

Here are some close ups of the pilot badge purchased from Jack Angloa.
There does not appear to be a match with your example.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

ibcasper
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 00:25
Location: maryland

Response to Bjon

Post by ibcasper » 17 Jan 2004 04:19

Based upon your response you are obviously an expert on Luftwaffe badges and have examined thousands of them. Have you seen any real 1st pattern badges, how would you know? Unless you personally removed the badge from the uniform of a german airman, how can you say?

As for your statements regarding Jack Angola. How many books on german militaria have you written? Jack has written many. What qualifies you to make this statment. He has 60 years of collecting experience. I think that that even the most qualified expert is capable of selling a fake. You just can never be sure. If you think you can be sure that you can be sure that everything you have or see is legitimate, you are mistaken and naive.

As for not wanting these badges in a collection, I have not asked anyone to take them in their collection. If I did, it would be a knowlegable collector.

It is possible I might say the same about any of your badges. You never know?

Steve

Mike K
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: 12 Apr 2003 11:41
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Post by Mike K » 17 Jan 2004 04:27

Hi Steve,

As I stated above, your example has the same wreath as the repro I posted above but your eagle has probably been CAST from an original eagle - hence the eagle will APPEAR to be the same. From the reverse, look at the wreath profile immedaitely above the catch area. You will notice a very pronounced "dip" formed where the oak/laurel leaves join the wreath tie. This is why the "dip-wreath repro" gets it's name. This is NOT correct for any genuine Juncker LW Pilot, P-O, Observer or LW Para badge. Compare the profile of the wreath (best done from the reverse) closely to the example in Angolia's own book! The remainder of the wreath profile on your example is also way too wide when compared to genuine Juncker examples. If the wreath is wrong, the badge is wrong - plain and simple.

Regards
Mike K

PS: having just read your second post, I will state quite openly that I do not consider myself an expert - I personally don't believe in them and I definitely do not allow anybody else to make my own decisions for me. NOWHERE in my previous post did I state that I know everything about everything but for the record I do not consider myself naive. I know what I know, I know what I am unsure about and I know the subjects of this hobby that I know nothing about. I still have plenty to learn in my specific fields of collection (war badges and EKs) and I still learn new bits every day, even after almost 20 years of collecting!

I have handled more than one LW badge (nowhere near the amount Jack Angolia has) and I HAVE learned to identify THIS reproduction - repeat - THIS REPRODUCTION - the subject of this thread. I state again, in Angolia's own book he presents a German veteran acquired thin pattern Juncker Pilot's Badge but it is differnt to yours - WHY?? The two thin pattern early Juncker examles I own are the SAME as the one presented in Angolia's book. Unfortunately you can not state the same about your two examples.

ibcasper
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 00:25
Location: maryland

To Mike

Post by ibcasper » 17 Jan 2004 16:06

Mike:
Thanks, my last comments were directed to Bjon, not to you. You seem to be sincerely interested in investigating these badges. However, I am concerned about what you are using as a baseline, that could certainly be a fake. By the way, why are you so sure that there were no variances in manufacturing? Different pins and pin assemblies might have been used by some makers as they bought pins, etc., from sub-contractors?

I have been told that the two dealers that you mention as experts routinely sell fakes and that the German dealer allegedly promotes his own faked WW 1 pilot badges by calling proper badges faked.

You state that my badge may be worth $20 to some collectors? However, I might not offer you $10.00 for any of your badges? If you are basing your assumptions of legitimacy upon a faked badge, I would not pay $10 for any of your badges?

Wartime variances in the making of these badges may account for some of the problems. Not all badges are obvious Souval fakes, but not all legit badges are going to fit the perceptions you have in what is real.

There may be no real experts. Unless we can get our hands on some of the Juncker workers who had knowledge on the pre and post manufacturing evidence, it is difficult to say As previously stated, unless you personally pulled the badge off of the uniform of a German soldier, you have a fake. They are all fakes.

Whether I produce exculpatory evidence that satisfies or your various tests, (or Bjon's,) you are only expressing opinions. Just because collectors might buy into those views, does not mean you are right about anything.

In the end. it is our own evaluation of a piece (not a Souval, etc.) and our own gut feeling as to the feel and quality of a piece.

I'll continue my research. If more collectors buy-in to your views, it will certainly make it more difficult for me to sell my badges (should I wish to do so). That might legitimize someone's badges and make it easier for them to sell them, but that does not mean that they are selling a real 3rd Reich badge, only that someone might be employing a better marketing tactic. If naive collectors want to buy into that, then that is their flaw in not wanting to think for themselves.

I'll continue my research and consider your remarks. However, nothing to date has provided me with any evidence that the examples you have cited are not fakes themselves.

Thanks for your comments. Opinions are like the distal portion of the alimentary canal, everyone has one?

Regards, Steve

Marcus H
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 02 Jan 2004 10:52
Location: Northamptonshire, Great Britain

Post by Marcus H » 17 Jan 2004 16:44

Steve,

These first pattern Junkers PO are not 'war time' so to speak (WW2) in the fact they are early and pre war, 1936-1938 is a figure I remember.

Your's is 1980's, 90's, not an opinion but a premise. We all all have eyes but some people refuse to use them therefore are blinded.

But with reference to your analogy, it rather depends on what you eat, and you've 'passed' on the wrong allimentum.

You seem to be a very intelligent person, please at least seek external opinion's from this forum even J Angolia, am I correct in assuming you didn't purchase this from him ?

Enough said, we're going around in circles. I wish you all the best in your future collecting.

Kind regards,

Marcus

User avatar
William Kramer
Host - Militaria sections
Posts: 2846
Joined: 27 Oct 2003 04:48
Location: Illinois

Dip-Wreath REPRODUCTION

Post by William Kramer » 18 Jan 2004 00:47

Mike or Marcus,

Hello, and let me start by saying that this was an AWESOME thread. I come here to learn from many people. I am a mere 19 years of age and have only been collecting for 3-4 years. I purchased anything that I could get my hands on, and AFTER weeding the fakes out I feel better about my collection.

I know how it feels to get burned by a good fake. I have been taken more than once by reproductions that are extremely accurate. For crying out loud the FACTS have been presented on the table.

This post has become a "back and forth" zone between collectors and basically has not taken us far.

Would it be possible to get an image of a known dip-wreath fake and circle the flaw? Could you then show an original example that does not contain this flaw? I believe that this would not only show everyone in the forum here what is going on, but it would also draw up a conclusion.....or maybe not.

I would really appreciate this and I know I am not the only one who might need this one pointed out with a circle, hint hint, wink wink.

Thanks for helping me attain this new knowledge.

William Kramer

ibcasper
Member
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 00:25
Location: maryland

Premises

Post by ibcasper » 18 Jan 2004 02:05

Marcus:
You are in error in your assessment of these badges. That is my premise and that is my belief. If you wish to expouse this erronious information, I would invite collectors to also do their own research.

You have no basis and no foundation in establishing these premises. That is and will destroy this hobby.


Steve

Return to “Axis Awards”