Katyn Forest Massacre- And Stalin's Reward

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Psycho Mike
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Katyn Forest Massacre- And Stalin's Reward

Post by Psycho Mike » 05 Jul 2003 19:48

The following article raises some interesting issues and questions about the first and largest slaughter of innocents, the cover up by the allies, and Stalin's reward.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... o2707.xml/

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 05 Jul 2003 23:54

Of course it was cover up by the Allies. George Howard Earle who was an officer in the U.S. Navy was prepared to publish a detailed statement on the Katyn tragedy in 1945 but Roosevelt told him:

" I have noted with concern your plan to publish your unfavorable opinion of one of our Allies... I not only do not wish it, but I specifficaly forbid you to publish any information about an Ally that you may have acquired while in office or in the service of the U.S. Navy".

Astonishing!

Sources: Stalin's Massacre and the Seeds of Polish Ressurection by Allen Paul.

Regards

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Post by PolAntek » 06 Jul 2003 22:33

Thanks for the post Psycho Mike.

The way I see it, the criminality of the Allied cover up of Stalin's crime and then awarding him Poland is only matched by the actual murder itself.

The extent of Stalin’s continued slaughter after the Allies rewarded him with Poland is not widely known. In the three years spanning 1945 – 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3 million to 6 million Poles. It is estimated that approx. 585,000 may have perished. Soviet repression and terror in those years claimed hundreds of thousands and possibly upward of 1 million Poles.

As the article states “once Stalin had got away with that (Katyn), he realized he could get away with almost anything.”

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Psycho Mike
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Post by Psycho Mike » 06 Jul 2003 22:59

And sadly he did. :cry:

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Hans
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Post by Hans » 09 Jul 2003 20:10

For our Russian speaking friends, there is an interesting website elsewhere adressing "Katyn Denial".

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 09 Jul 2003 20:32

PolAntek wrote:Thanks for the post Psycho Mike.

The way I see it, the criminality of the Allied cover up of Stalin's crime and then awarding him Poland is only matched by the actual murder itself.

The extent of Stalin’s continued slaughter after the Allies rewarded him with Poland is not widely known. In the three years spanning 1945 – 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3 million to 6 million Poles. It is estimated that approx. 585,000 may have perished. Soviet repression and terror in those years claimed hundreds of thousands and possibly upward of 1 million Poles.

As the article states “once Stalin had got away with that (Katyn), he realized he could get away with almost anything.”
etsimated by whom and how might I ask?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 09 Jul 2003 20:33

Hans wrote:For our Russian speaking friends, there is an interesting website elsewhere adressing "Katyn Denial".
somebody here dienied that Katyn happened?

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PolAntek
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Post by PolAntek » 10 Jul 2003 06:14

oleg wrote:
PolAntek wrote:Thanks for the post Psycho Mike.

The way I see it, the criminality of the Allied cover up of Stalin's crime and then awarding him Poland is only matched by the actual murder itself.

The extent of Stalin’s continued slaughter after the Allies rewarded him with Poland is not widely known. In the three years spanning 1945 – 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3 million to 6 million Poles. It is estimated that approx. 585,000 may have perished. Soviet repression and terror in those years claimed hundreds of thousands and possibly upward of 1 million Poles.

As the article states “once Stalin had got away with that (Katyn), he realized he could get away with almost anything.”
etsimated by whom and how might I ask?


Hello Oleg:

Source: R.J. Rummel website titled:

Freedom,
Democracy, Peace;
Power,
Democide, and War

and specifically the following exhaustive table of data:

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/ussr.tab8a.gif

Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 10 Jul 2003 06:28

PolAntek wrote:
oleg wrote:
PolAntek wrote:Thanks for the post Psycho Mike.

The way I see it, the criminality of the Allied cover up of Stalin's crime and then awarding him Poland is only matched by the actual murder itself.

The extent of Stalin’s continued slaughter after the Allies rewarded him with Poland is not widely known. In the three years spanning 1945 – 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3 million to 6 million Poles. It is estimated that approx. 585,000 may have perished. Soviet repression and terror in those years claimed hundreds of thousands and possibly upward of 1 million Poles.

As the article states “once Stalin had got away with that (Katyn), he realized he could get away with almost anything.”
etsimated by whom and how might I ask?


Hello Oleg:

Source: R.J. Rummel website titled:

Freedom,
Democracy, Peace;
Power,
Democide, and War

and specifically the following exhaustive table of data:

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/ussr.tab8a.gif

Regards
I souldh have guessed -his etsimates are wya overhead. Even more so -there is no need for estiamtes the numbers were published long time ago. -180 thuosands prior to 1939 and 540000 after 17 of September of 1939. Counting various "small time" repressions - 720000 alltogether.

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Post by Musashi » 10 Jul 2003 14:59

oleg wrote:
Hans wrote:For our Russian speaking friends, there is an interesting website elsewhere adressing "Katyn Denial".
somebody here dienied that Katyn happened?

Of course, a few Russian historians. However I don't remember their names. I have seen an interview with them on TV.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 10 Jul 2003 19:10

Musashi wrote:
oleg wrote:
Hans wrote:For our Russian speaking friends, there is an interesting website elsewhere adressing "Katyn Denial".
somebody here dienied that Katyn happened?

Of course, a few Russian historians. However I don't remember their names. I have seen an interview with them on TV.

I said here

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 10 Jul 2003 20:45

oleg wrote:
Musashi wrote:
oleg wrote:
Hans wrote:For our Russian speaking friends, there is an interesting website elsewhere adressing "Katyn Denial".
somebody here dienied that Katyn happened?

Of course, a few Russian historians. However I don't remember their names. I have seen an interview with them on TV.

I said here

Horosho, izvienitie! :) :wink:

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Post by Jacob Peters » 29 Jan 2007 00:50

The following article raises some interesting issues and questions about the first and largest slaughter of innocents, the cover up by the allies, and Stalin's reward.


I disagree with the notion that the allegedly executed officers for which we don't have any serious evidence in the form of body counts were automatically innocent. It is not like they were innocent civilians but were just simply military units killed in a time of war. If Poland had not launched an unprovoked assault on Ukraine and Belorussia in 1919-20, then there never would have been a Soviet-Polish conflict. This documents the oppression of Russian peoples in Poland in the 1921-1939 period:

In 1935 Poland declared that it would no longer be bound by the League of Nations treaty on ethnic minorities, arguing that its own laws were adequate. That same year, many Belorussians in Poland who opposed the government's policies were placed in a concentration camp at Byaroza-Kartuzski (Bereza Kartuska, in Polish). The Belorussians lost their last seat in the Polish Sejm in the general elections of 1935, and the legislation that guaranteed the right of minority communities to have their own schools was repealed in November 1938. The state then involved itself more deeply in religion by attempting to Polonize the Orthodox Church and subordinate it to the government.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/bytoc.html

So far, according to Russia's military prosector Savenkov, it has been found that only 1,803 officers were killed of which the bodies of only 22 have been identified.
http://www.utro.ru/news/2005/03/22/420278.shtml

The extent of Stalin’s continued slaughter after the Allies rewarded him with Poland is not widely known. In the three years spanning 1945 – 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3 million to 6 million Poles.


I've seen no serious evidence of such. A study of Soviet resettlements of ethnic groups by Pavel Polian shows that overall 285,000 Polish were deported from the recovered Ukrainian and Belorussian provinces in the 1939-41 period
http://www.memo.ru/history/deport/polyan2.htm#_VPID_18

After June 1941, relations between USSR and the militarist regime in London improved. Hundreds of thousands were repatriated to fight with Anders and in the eastern front. Collier's Yearbook shows the characteristics of the Polish regime in 1939:
"The Colonels" established what was called abroad "a dictatorship without a dictator," the rule of a military clique despised by the overwhelming majority of the Polish
Last edited by Jacob Peters on 29 Jan 2007 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Thompson » 29 Jan 2007 02:53

Jacob Peters - You wrote:
I disagree with the notion that the allegedly executed officers for which we don't have any serious evidence in the form of body counts were automatically innocent. They were part of the Polish military which launched an unprovoked assault upon the Lithuanian-Belorussian SSR and Soviet Ukraine in 1919-20.

If you have any evidence that the Polish officers executed at Katyn were personally involved in, and convicted of war crimes by Soviet courts, and the killings were in official execution of that sentence, now is the time to produce it. If you have no such evidence, your post is mere agitprop, which I will delete pursuant to your many previous warnings posted at:

viewtopic.php?p=1004070#1004070
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Post by KrazyWaster » 03 Feb 2007 06:50

This article is simply looking at allied 'denial' from a very singular perspective: Moral responsibility.

No one surely denies that Katyn was seen as anything but atrocious by the western allies. The primary objective for Britain and latterly, America, was the defeat of Germany. Antagonizing a prospective ally, however distasteful to Churchill...was political suicide at the time. Remember that he went so far as to say he would make allies with the devil against Hitler.

We have to accept that the moral and political motives at work during this period where hugely different than today. I do not disagree with the desire to find out more, but I think it is very insular to heap scorn on the allied leadership without accepting the conditions under which they acted, or chose not to act.Indeed, the same could be said of the criticisms levelled at the allies in failing to act against the transport network which took so many Jews to their deaths.

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