2nd Tank Army Valentines in Poland -44

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Mattias Rönnblom
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2nd Tank Army Valentines in Poland -44

Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 31 Jan 2007 10:23

In the beginning of August 1944 elements of SS Wiking, SS Totenkopf, 19 PzD and 4 PzD counter-attacked 2nd Tank Army just east of Warsaw. During this battle, the 2nd TA lost a number of British-made Valentine tanks.

My question is: who knocked out these tanks? When? Where?

I've tried to go through the 4 PzD history, but I haven't been able to find anything. Bacyk's book on the Praga battle does document a number of Valentines being knocked out, but not when engaging the 2nd TA.

I've posted this on the Feldgrau forum as well, and I hope you don't mind me cross-posting. Thanks.

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Yuri
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Re: 2nd Tank Army Valentines in Poland -44

Post by Yuri » 31 Jan 2007 13:17

Mattias Rönnblom wrote:In the beginning of August 1944 elements of SS Wiking, SS Totenkopf, 19 PzD and 4 PzD counter-attacked 2nd Tank Army just east of Warsaw. During this battle, the 2nd TA lost a number of British-made Valentine tanks.

I've tried to go through the 4 PzD history, but I haven't been able to find anything. Bacyk's book on the Praga battle does document a number of Valentines being knocked out, but not when engaging the 2nd TA.

I've posted this on the Feldgrau forum as well, and I hope you don't mind me cross-posting. Thanks.
In the beginning of August, 1944 to the east of Warsaw 2-n Tank Army conducted fights with four German Tank divisions: TD «German Gering», 5 Pz Div SS, 19 and 4 Pz Div.
What quantity of the destroyed Russian tanks it is informed in German sources?
I had an opportunity to compare numbers of the destroyed Russian tanks on which I inform German sources, with real numbers from documents of Red Army during fights on a boundary of river Chir.
For example, 48 TK (gen.von Knobelsdorff and von Mellentin), in structure of which operated at that time 11-th TD (gen. Balk), has informed about destruction in area of river Chir more than about 700 Russian tanks.
Actually, during this period Russian 5-th Tank Army has irrevocably lost only 97 tanks.
And this number of the destroyed tanks includes also those tanks which have destroyed others German and Romanian units, not included 48 TK.

Thus, in 1942 Germans overestimated number of the destroyed tanks in 7 and more times.
It would be curious to look at Your figures.

Mattias Rönnblom
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Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 31 Jan 2007 20:02

Bacyk, in his book on the Praga battle, cites a report from General Radzjijevskijs, stating that 116 tanks were completely destroyed. He expresses some doubt in the report's accuracy.

According to Die 4. Panzer-Division 1943 - 1945, 4. Panzer-Division alone destroyed 111 enemy tanks and assault guns in this battle.

The number of Valentines lost by 2nd TA was very low. Maybe as little as three (3). They were probably a part of 5th Separate Motorcycle Regiment. If anyone has any information on this regiment, I'm interested.

Panzeralex
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Post by Panzeralex » 31 Jan 2007 21:35

Some info about 2 TA.
There were 377 tanks and SP guns in 2 TA on 4.8.43:
3 Tank Corps: T-34 - 35, SU-85 - 6, SU-76 - 7.
8 Guard TC: T-34 - 29, M4A2 - 57, IS-2 - 14, SU-85 - 14, SU-76 - 12
16 TC: T-34 - 82, SU-85 - 14, SU-76 - 16, IS-2 - 10.
109 TBrig: T-34 - 56.
9 Separate Signal Regiment: T-34 - 5.
87 Separate Motorcycle Battalion: T-34 - 7.
5 Seperate Motocyrcle Battalion: Valentine Mk-9 - 7.
In tranzit: 6 T-34.

Total losses 2 TA for period 20 July - 8 August 1944:
155 T-34, 48 M4A2, 4 IS-2, 3 Mk-9 Valentine, 18 SU-85, 15 Su-76 were destroyed.

And something else:
According report from Stab 1 Belorusskogo Fronta on 13.8.43,
there were lost (not only destroyed, but damaged too) 101 tank and 13 SP guns in 2 TA during the period 1-10.8.43.

best regards,
Panzeralex

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 31 Jan 2007 22:07

This report of general Radzievsky - Commander 2-nd Tank Army.
Here for the first time it is mentioned occurrence in front of Warsaw German Tank Divisions.
The report Commander 2-nd Tank Army
to Commander armies 1-st Belarus front
About presence of the Warsaw strengthened area and the decision to attack the city of Prague - suburb of Warsaw.

On July, 30th, 1944.

1. Presence of the strengthened line Warsaw UR (ukreplennyj rayon - the strengthened area) is confirmed with the commander of 73-rd infantry division general-lieutenant Fronek (taken by us in a captivity). There are DOTs (long-term points for firing), borrowed by artillery units. Minsk-Mozovetsky the tank division "Herman Goering" borrows.

2. 3-rd Tank Corps has seized the main forces Kobylka / 8 km to northeast from Warsaw/.
16-th Tank Corps - has seized Poguljanka, however has rested against strongly strengthened strip, a wood to the west Milysan Star.

3. 8-th Guards Tank Corps - conducts persistent fight on boundary Minsk-Mazovetsky, Gljanjanka (8 km from Minsk-Mazovetsky) with a tank division "Goering".

4. Has solved:
1. 3-rd and 16-th Tanks Corpses - to approach to surburbs of Prague more quickly, to connect their flanks. To cut off Warsaw from the east, northeast and a southeast.
8-th Guards Tank Corps - to put protection from Minsk-Mazovetsky from the south (to be covered from Minsk-Mazovetsky from the south). The main forces to bypass defense of a tank division "Goering".
To deduce 8 Tank Corps in area Okunev, the Isabella, Podjuzefin, providing 3-rd and 16-th Tank Corpses from the east.
Reserve 109-th tank brigade to deduce in a wood, that to northeast from Minsk-Mazovetsky, and impact of 8-th Tank Corps from the West, and a tank brigade from the east and northeast to destroy a tank division "Goering" in area Minsk-Mazovetsky, not supposing its withdrawal and connection with the main forces of the opponent on a northeast direction.

The aircraft of the opponent continuously bombs fighting (battles) orders of Corpses.

Ñàìîëåò ïðîòèâíèêà íåïðåðûâíî áîìáèò áîðüáó (ñðàæåíèÿ) çàêàçû(ðàñïîðÿæåíèÿ) Òðóïîâ.

Convincingly I ask:
1. Impact of bombing aircraft displace from ground Minsk-Mazovetsky where the concentration about 100 tanks and self-propelled instruments is established.

2. To cover a fighter aircraft area of 2-nd tank army.

3. Our aircraft absolutely stays idle.

4. To accelerate submission of fuel and oil.

I start to exhaust.

Radzievsky
Latyshev
On this document by a hand of the Commander Armies 1-st Belarussian front the Marshal of Soviet Union K.K.Rokossovsky it is written:
«To the commander of 2-nd Tank Army. Armies to improvise, storm strengthened areas and long-term defensive works to avoid. Concerning fuel and oil to you it is informed by my assistant on rear. Rokossovsky.
30.7.1944»
CAMD RF
f. 233, i. 2307, f. 29, s. 53-54. The original
(Russian Archive. GPW, vol. 14-3 (2), p. 413-414)

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