Victories and losses of Soviet submarines during WWII

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Apr 2007 16:44

Few quick notes.
BIGpanzer wrote: PS3. IIRC we've discussed here shortly the new Russian movie about submariners ["Pervyy posle Boga"/"The first after God"] - a very good film in my opinion, I bought DVD copy last week. Yes, and we discussed the role of Irina Björklund in this Russian movie. Am I right that she also played in "Rukajarven tie"/"Ambush"?
Yes, same woman.
BP wrote:As for pictures - here is the picture of Red Banner large cruise submarine K-22
Isn't it K-21 at the pic?
Janne wrote:The Finns also sold 72 submarine torpedoes to the Soviets.
A memory from the past: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &highlight


About Marinesco/Marinescu:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &highlight
http://compunews.com/s13/intro.htm (also P-O Ekman)
http://compunews.com/s13/s13.htm

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 05 Apr 2007 17:26

Juha wrote:
Isn't it K-21 at the pic?
Oops....
Yes, thanks for the correction, I just misprinted during night time and mentioned K-22 instead of K-21 several times after that. Already corrected above. Of course, that was the image of K-21 and story was about K-21 also.
http://www.istorya.ru/book/ww2/img/tmp11B-147.jpg [photo of K-21, 1942]
http://photo.murman.ru/www/vcards.nsf/i ... photo4.jpg [K-21 as the museum in Severomorsk, Murmansk region]
Additional info about artillery fire against Norwegian motorboats - K-21 opened fire against 6 motorboats [12.04.1943, distance 20 cables; 14:09-15:55] - "Froey" was sank, "Skrein", "Havegga", "Oistein" and "Baren" were damaged, "Gida" had no damages. 44 100-mm shells were used. 9 Norwegians were killed, 5 were wounded, 7 were captured [3 of them died in Soviet prison later, 1 became the volunteer of Red Army and was killed during WWII]. Artilleryman of K-21 A. Labutin was washed away by wave, and "Baren" rescued him when K-21 moved away - he lived in Norwegian fishing village some time, then he was arrested by Germans, escaped from German prison in October 1944 and returned back to USSR via Sweden and Finland, fought in 1945 near Königsberg as marine.

Regards, BP

PS. Dear friends, I will return back next week, a lot of work...................................

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Post by Seppo Koivisto » 06 Apr 2007 10:26

Turun Sanomat had on 27 April 1999 an interview of Veikko Hyytiäinen, signal NCO (viestialiupseeri) of Vetehinen, after the wreck of a Soviet submarine was found by Swedes in 1998.

This is how he tells about the sinking of the ShCh-305.

Russian subs were hunting ships freighting iron ore from the Gulf of Bothnia. Therefore Finnish subs started to patrol at night time on Åland Sea, south of the Märket passage. On 6 (?) November 1942 Vetehinen started a patrol under Captain (kapteeniluutnantti) Antti Leino.

Vetehinen was cruising slowly, when a foreign, silent and darkened sub was detected nearby. Vetehinen aimed the first torpedo between the bow and the tower and the second behind the tower. The foreign sub had noted them and backed to avoid the torpedoes and prepared for dive.

The captain ordered full speed ahead and men to the gun. In mid of the gun fire a hard crash was heard, when Vetehinen hit the side of the Russian sub. "I saw at least one 100 mm (?) grenade of the Bofors gun hitting violently the tower."

Right after the crash the engines of Vetehinen were reversed and it managed to pull back. The Russian sub had a large hole in the hull and started to sink stern first almost vertically.

Vetehinen had got a leak in the bow, which could be controlled with pumps, it took five days to repair her in Turku.

He had wondered what had happened, if the 30 meters longer Soviet sub with two guns of larger caliber had not decided to dive in the first place.

http://www.abc.se/~pa/uwa/s7.htm
http://www.abc.se/~pa/sture/s8.htm

Found the article also in internet:
http://www.turunsanomat.fi/ajassa/?ts=1 ... :0:0:0:0:0:
Last edited by Seppo Koivisto on 06 Apr 2007 19:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 06 Apr 2007 11:43

Thanks, Seppo, interesting info!
These links I've already posted here :wink:

According to the most correct of my sources this event is described the following way:

Shch-305 "Lin" ["Tench"] started the mission 27.10.1942 [01:30] and moved to the western side of Is. Gotland [position No. 11]. 29.10.1942 the commander of submarine base sent a radiomessage to Shch-305 and ordered to change the position and to move to Eland Sea [position No. 6]. 31.10.1942 Shch-305 finished the crossing of Gulf of Finland [19:30] and sent the reply radiomessage to submarine base [23:00]. 05.11.1942 Shch-305 tried to attack Finnish convoy during the daytime and was detected/counterattacked by Finnish gunboat "Uisko" - so Shch-305 sent a radiomessage about that [20:00]. Finns intercepted the radiomessage and sent "Iku-Turso" and "Vetehinen" to the area [so "Vetehinen" couldn't start the mission 06.11]. Commander of Shch-305 [captain 3rd rank D. Sazonov] had the info about presence of enemy submarines nearby but he, probably, believed that it was hard to detect his submarine during bad weather. So Shch-305 charged the batteries at full speed that time NE off Simpnas [a little bit in contrary with your info that submarine was silent, but, probably, Soviet acoustic detected "Vetehinen" also just before attack and Shch-305 reduced the speed]. "Vetehinen" used electroengines for stealthiness. "Vetehinen" lost the contact with Shch-305 two times, but reestablished them again. 23:55 [05.11.1942] "Vetehinen" [commander - captain-lieutenant A. Leino] found a good position and fired two torpedos from 1.5 cables [but no explosions were heard despite the very close distance]. Annoyed A. Leino ordered to open fire from 76mm gun [not 100mm] and, probably, shots blinded captain and other Finnish crewmembers on the submarine bridge. In 30 sec both submarines collided unexpectedly for both crews ["Vetehinen" had 6 knots speed (not full speed or still not full speed) and hit the left side of Shch-305 just behind nose depth rudders]. As Shch-305 performed crash dive that time, the flooding of its 1st and [probably] 2nd compartments caused increased forward trim [so V. Hyytiäinen mistaked during the nighttime - Shch-305 started to sink nose first not stern, of course]. The crewmembers of Shch-305 couldn't close doors between compartments because of strong and fast forward trim, also it was very hard to perform damage control in such situation; all crew [38 men] was lost. Damaged "Vetehinen" listened the area 2.5 hours after collision trying to detect Shch-305 but Soviet submarine sank [60.03'3"/19.12'5"].

I also found that Shch-305 attacked "Vetehinen" [another source mention that was "Vesihiisi"] in June 1941 [28.06.1941]. "Vetehinen"[?] returned back after installation of mines off Is. Gogland when it was detected and attacked by Shch-305 [the first torpedo attack of Baltic Soviet submarine during WWII]. Shch-305 from under-water position fired 1 torpedo which missed and Finnish submarine dived. 30.06.1941 Shch-305 was unsuccessfully attacked by Finnish submarine [Shch-305 crash dived and avoided torpedo], 06.07.1941 Shch-305 was unsuccessfully attacked again by unknown enemy submarine [Finnish?] near Shepelevsky lighthouse. I will check this info with Platonov's book tonight to clarify the name of Finnish submarine [as I have it at home not in my office].

Regards, BP

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Post by Seppo Koivisto » 06 Apr 2007 13:17

Shch-305 started to sink nose first not stern
The sonar picture shows that the stern is badly damaged, while the nose is almost intact. Doesn´t that prove the opposite?

Veikko Hyytiäinen had served before the war on Ilmarinen and the high sea voyages of Suomen Joutsen, after the war he was a captain in the merchant fleet. He was already an experienced seaman at that time and I think a reliable witness, but of course he could have mistaken.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 06 Apr 2007 15:10

Do you have the side sonar picture of Shch-305? Me seems that you confused Shch-305 with S-7 - http://www.abc.se/~pa/uwa/s7.htm [the stern of S-7 was damaged by torpedo indeed]. Many sources mention that the 1st [nose] compartment of Shch-305 was damaged during collision with Finnish submarine, and Shch-305 crash dived that time [nose down also].

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Post by Seppo Koivisto » 06 Apr 2007 16:25

Me seems that you confused Shch-305 with S-7
Sorry, my mistake. The news paper article speculates (in 1999), if the wreck could be ShCh-305, which mixed me!

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Post by BIGpanzer » 06 Apr 2007 17:51

No problem!
By the way, here is the short WWII documentary film about North convoys to USSR, significant part of which is devoted to Soviet submarine, returning to the base after mission.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHpX0wPn1k8

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Apr 2007 22:03

The K-21 seemed to have been a little...unlucky with the torpedoes: http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5126.html
AFAIK there still are some beliefs that it scored at it's attack against Tirpitz
BIGpanzer wrote: According to the most correct of my sources this event is described the following way:
When did the Soviets last receive radio message from ShCh-305?
BP wrote:"Vetehinen" [commander - captain-lieutenant A. Leino] found a good position and fired two torpedos from 1.5 cables [but no explosions were heard despite the very close distance].
250m was too close, the torpedoes went under the target
BP wrote: Annoyed A. Leino ordered to open fire from 76mm gun [not 100mm] and, probably, shots blinded captain and other Finnish crewmembers on the submarine bridge.
At least the Soviet crew inside their bridge
BP wrote: In 30 sec both submarines collided unexpectedly for both crews
Unexpectedly to the Soviet crew.
BP wrote:["Vetehinen" had 6 knots speed (not full speed or still not full speed)
Still not full speed
BP wrote:and hit the left side of Shch-305 just behind nose depth rudders].
Well...at least in front of the bridge.
BP wrote: V. Hyytiäinen mistaked during the nighttime - Shch-305 started to sink nose first not stern, of course].
I've read of both, nose and stern first versions.

BP wrote:I also found that Shch-305 attacked "Vetehinen" [another source mention that was "Vesihiisi"] in June 1941 [28.06.1941]. "Vetehinen"[?] returned back after installation of mines off Is. Gogland when it was detected and attacked by Shch-305 [the first torpedo attack of Baltic Soviet submarine during WWII].
If the possible Metallist "attack" http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=#1034785 is not counted in, ShCh-322 10th December 1939 was AFAIK the first.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 Apr 2007 01:51

Juha wrote:
The K-21 seemed to have been a little...unlucky with the torpedoes: http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5126.html
AFAIK there still are some beliefs that it scored at it's attack against Tirpitz
http://uboat.net is a good source for German submarines and mediocre source for other submarines. This site contains quite many mistakes and gaps.
As for torpedo attacks were performed by K-21 - the submarine made 9 torpedo attacks during the war [09.11.1941 - transport; 12.11.1941 - 2 transports + V6109 "Nordwind"; 13.01.1942 - transports "Fechenheim", 8116 brt and "Tyrifjord", 3080 brt + 4 patrol boats; 31.03.1942 - hydroaviatransport "Admiral Karl Hering" + transport "Almora" + tanker "Oleum" + 4 patrol ships; 05.07.1942 - battleship "Tirpitz" + 2 heavy cruisers + 7 destroyers + 2 patrol ships; 19.08.1942 - transport "Sevres", 5089 brt + 2 patrol ships; 19.08.1942 - 2 patrol ships; 20.02.1943 - several fishing motorboats on the berth; 09.04.1943 - mine-layer "Brummer" + 5 patrol ships]. Only one was successful - 20.02.1943 [02:18 am]: several motorboats were sank by 4 torpedos from 10-12 cables.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/s02.gif [blue-print of large cruise submarine "K"]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/s13.gif [torpedo attacks of Soviet submarines of North navy during 1941-1945, according to the source from 1990]

As for the famous torpedo attack against battleship "Tirpitz" - it was detected at 17:15 and attacked at 18:01, 4 torpedos from 18-20 cables. In 135 sec two explosions were heard, also three long-continued [20 sec each] explosions were heard at 18:31, 18:32 and 18:38. 19:05 - commander N. Lunin didn't see any ships in periscope. Most probably, that all 4 torpedos didn't reach their target because of heading errors and self-exploded. "Tirpitz" ran at high speed and used anti-submarine manoeuvring, also K-21 had quite inconvenient position and could fire torpedos from stern torpedo tubes only. The version that 1-2 torpedos still hit "Tirpitz" is not supported by many German and Russian naval historians. But the attack of K-21 was important as Germans could intercept and decoded Lunin's radiomessage [he reported about coordinates of "Tirpitz" after attack], so they decided to return "Tirpitz" [German ship No. 1] to the base to avoid any risks. The British plan to catch "Tirpitz" and destroy it using notorious PQ-17 as attraction and powerful fleet of battleships nearby failed because of attack of K-21 [Lunin didn't know anything about British plans and just tried to defend convoy]. Father of captain Lunin was found by Nazis in German-occupied Rostov-on-Don after attack against "Tirpitz" and hunged on city square.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/26.jpg [attack against "Tirpitz"]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/s10.gif [scheme of the famous attack]
http://victory.rusarchives.ru/image/photo/397_big.jpg [captain 2nd rank Lunin (to the right) reported about his attack against "Tirpitz" to admirals]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/45.jpg [crewmembers of K-21 congratulated their captain at base after attack against "Tirpitz"]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/28.jpg [crew of K-21]

K-21 sank at least 2 Norwegian fishing motorboats by artillery fire [21.01.1942 - F 223 N, 2 100mm shells; 12.04.1943 - "Froey" and 4 damaged motorboats; 44 100mm shells] and performed 7 mine installations during the war [transport "Bessenheim", 1774 brt exploded 21.12.1941 and anti-submarine vessel UJ1110 exploded 09.07.1942]. Unsuccessfully tried to ram enemy submarine 20.02.1943. 12 missions total - 163 days during 1941-1944.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/53.jpg [crew of nose 100mm gun of K-21]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/25.jpg [artillery attack]
http://militera.lib.ru/h/sergeev_km/55.jpg [signalmen of K-21]

K-21 was attacked by German aircraft [24.10.1941 - 13 bullet holes in the hull and 1 wounded man]; motorboat [12.11.1941, 4 depth charges, no damages]; patrol ship "Nordwind" [12.11.1941 - 8 depth charges; several fuel tanks were damaged]; aircraft Ar-196 [18.11.1941 - several depth charges, no damages]; German mine-sweeper M 1502 [13.01.1942 - 4 depth charges according to K-21 report or 10 depth charges according to Germans, no damages]; patrol boat [18.01.1942 - 4 depth charges, no damages]; large anti-submarine vessel Uj 1205 [19.01.1942 - 86 depth charges/explosions, no damages]; several German bombers [26.02.1942 in port - 3x250 kg bombs 100 m away, very light damages]; 3 German destroyers [28.03.1942 - 14 depth charges, no damages]; large anti-submarine vessel Uj 1104 [31.03.1942 - 3 depth charges, no damages]; several aircraft [19.06.1942 - 2 bombs; one ballast tank was damaged]; aircraft [27.06.1942 - 8 bullet holes in the hull]; 3 times by enemy submarines [for example, 08.07.1942 - 3 torpedos passed 1 cable away]; German Ju-88 [21.02.1943, 2 bombs, light damages]; 12 Ju-88 [03.03.1943 in port - 40 bombs, light damages]; several times touched mine anchor lines.
Juha wrote:
When did the Soviets last receive radio message from ShCh-305?
Shch-305 sent the radiomessage 05.11.1942 [20:00], but I don't know exactly was it the last or not. This is according to http://www.deepstorm.ru. Platonov doesn't describe timetable of radiomessages in his book about Soviet submarines.
Juha wrote:
250m was too close, the torpedoes went under the target
1.5 cables is ~278 m. Under or near the target - impossible to find out.
Juha wrote:
At least the Soviet crew inside their bridge
Very probably, that Finnish artillerymen could be blinded by their shots. That happened very often during night artillery fire from deck guns.
Juha wrote:
Unexpectedly to the Soviet crew.
And, probably, to Finns also. Impossible to find out as, of course, they reported that they ramed Soviet submarine even if submarines just collided. Platonov describe the ram version , http://www.deepstorm.ru mention the collision version, for example. Other details are very similar.
Juha wrote:
Well...at least in front of the bridge.

Russian sources mention hit the left side of Shch-305 just behind the nose depth rudders. But as there were no survived Soviet eye-witnesses and IIRC there is no photo of sinking submarine in this case all info came from different Finnish sources only, in my opinion. Or it could be possible to reconstruct the event by computer using such data as distance, speeds and angles of both submarines, also depth of Shch-305 during dive.

Juha wrote:
I wrote:
I also found that Shch-305 attacked "Vetehinen" [another source mention that was "Vesihiisi"] in June 1941 [28.06.1941]. "Vetehinen"[?] returned back after installation of mines off Is. Gogland when it was detected and attacked by Shch-305 [the first torpedo attack of Baltic Soviet submarine during WWII].
ShCh-322 10th December 1939 was AFAIK the first.

I meant Great Patriotic war 1941-1945 when the torpedo attack of Shch-305 was the first on Baltic indeed. Shch-305 attacked "Vetehinen" in reality, I've checked [interesting fate I need to say].
As for Winter war [from http://www.deepstorm.ru and der Seekrieg 1939-1945 by F. Ruge] - Shch-322 attacked transport "Rheinbek", 2804 brt 10.12.1939. "Rheinbek" was a neutral ship [German] and ran outside the blockade zone [but commander of Shch-322 didn't know that as he was informed about the blockade area borders incorrectly because of radiomen mistake]. "Rheinbek" didn't respond on signals from submarine and Shch-322 pursued transport more than an hour [as "Rheinbek" ran at 11 knots]. Soviet suspicions increased when "Rheinbek" didn't respond on signals from another German transport, running from the oposite direction [probably, signalmen of "Rheinbek" were not excellent sailors]. Shch-322 prepared to attack and fired torpedo from 7 cables which hit the right side of "Rheinbek", transport sank in 2 min, no survivors [Estonian fishmen found dead bodies and life-boats in one week]. 12.12.1939 Shch-322 detected another German transport "Helga Boge", 2181 brt, which also didn't respond on signal from submarine - Shch-322 attacked but torpedo missed, Soviet captain ordered to open artillery fire but both guns freezed [crewmembers began to ice out them using boiling water from caboose] - 4 shells hit the transport and it stopped, so Shch-322 realized that was neutral German transport and ceased fire. Nevertheless, HQ ordered submarine to return back to the base 15.12.1939 to prevent further incidents.

Shch-322 performed 2 missions in 1941 [no victories], was attacked by German bombers many times during 03-12.08.1941 [no damages because of manoeuvrings and dives]. 22.09.1941 it was damaged by air bomb in Kronshtadt [20 holes in the hull], 26.09.1941 it was damaged by artillery shell. Repaired.
Shch-322 collided with patrol boat MO-310 11.10.1941 [patrol boat sank in one week] during the departure from Is. Gogland, but continued the mission. Most probably, Shch-322 exploded on mine 12.10.1941 [patrol boats detected strong explosion that time in the direction to submarine], all crew [37 men] was lost.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 07 Apr 2007 18:02, edited 9 times in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 Apr 2007 02:31

Juha replied to Walter:
First, there are 25 ships at your list.
Hiddensee- AFAIK 19420204 no Soviet subs were on mission.
Hannah - No info about that. What is your source for the claim?
Mercator - according to P-O Ekman Sukellusvenesotaa Itämerellä (Submarine Warfare at Baltic Sea) 19421026 SC-406 (Osipov) claimed a 12000 brt steamer sunk. AFAIK no ship was sunken, and I haven't read of any even damaged. What's your source for the claim?
Elbing - No info about that. What is your source for the claim?
Platonov [one of the best historian of Baltic Sea operations during WWII] mentioned 16 ships torpedoed and sank by Soviet submarines in 1942 [of course, he mentions exact names and coordinates as well as details of attacks but no time, sorry - 03:00 am], also 10 ships were damaged by submarine torpedos in 1942, also 3 ships were exploded on submarine mines in 1942 and 1 was sank by artillery fire - 20 ships were sank by submarines in 1942 total according to Platonov. So despite the fact that 1942 was the most hard year for Soviet Baltic submarines [because of large mine fields and improved strong anti-submarine defense of Germans and Finns], the year 1942 was also the most successful for Baltic submarines.
Agree with Juha here - no Hiddensee, no Hannah, Mercator in doubt. Transport "Elbing IX", 467 brt was torpedoed [indeed] by Shch-306 [or another sub] 06.11.1942 [10:30; NW from lighthouse Stolpemunde] - historians Platonov and Morozov mentioned not very high possibility that Shch-306 could torpedoed "Elbing IX" because its captain didn't mention this in his radiomessage from 11.11.1942. Shch-306 unsuccessfully attacked Finnish mine-layer "Ruotsinsalmi" several times during that mission [12.11.1942 - 17:45 and 19:50, next day - 02:27 and 04:45], it was clearly visible in periscope that torpedo's trace [04:45, 13.11.1942] passed below the bridge of Finnish mine-layer.
Shch-406 attacked large transport 26.10.1942 [22:30] - 2 torpedos from 6 cables, strong explosion was heard and Osipov could note heel of the ship in periscope; attack was repeated [22:37, 2 torpedos missed] - that was counted as damaged transport officially, but, most probably, the ship wasn't damaged.
Juha wrote about P-O Ekman:
Sometimes he has mistaked, when failed to found out the truth from the Soviet sources
.
As he mentioned the ram of U-479 by "Lembit" he failed to find out the truth from German sources also :lol: If P-O Ekman was a good historian he should know that to find correct info [for the corresponding time] from Soviet sources was possible only using "Guide of losses of navies and merchant fleets of Germany and German allies, caused by action of Navy of USSR during Great patriotic war 1941-1945", other Soviet sources about enemy ship losses were not correct. That guide was published in USSR in 1957 as secret document and it was impossible to read it by usual researcher. Nevertheless, it was used and cited by several official Soviet historians of high rank, so every researcher knew about guide but couldn't use till 1980s.
I also think that it is much better for well-known historian to write nothing about the subject if he failed to find the truth than to write wrong info. Reputation is an important thing.
Seppo Koivisto wrote:
He had wondered what had happened, if the 30 meters longer Soviet sub with two guns of larger caliber had not decided to dive in the first place.
Really?!
Technical specifications are very easy to find and check, why you don't do this?
Shch-305 had length 58.8 m and was armed with 2x45mm guns, "Vetehinen" had length 63.5 m and was armed with 1x76.2mm + 1x20mm guns.

BP

PS. Additional info about Marinesco - he was talented and experienced captain [his father was a Romanian sailor during Balkan wars], but he had complicated character: proud and ambitious. He enjoyed tablefuls and women, and always had his own opinion which annoyed his commanders and especially HQ officers. But crewmembers liked him very much for his experience and fidelity to his principles, when Marinesco should be dismissed after the incident in Finnish restaurant, crew didn't agree to obey new captain so it was allowed for Marinesco to stay on board [and he attacked "Wilhelm Gustloff"].
In 1943 Marinesco got into another incident when he drank a lot of alcohol after news that his friend [submarine commander] didn't return back after mission.
One quite famous story [mainly it was described as the legend, but some historians think that this is truth] happened in Finland in 1944, when Marinesco bought in Helsinki the very expensive car-cabriolet and used one of his sailors as personal driver. Once his cabriolet was noticed by Baltic HQ officers in the city and they were shocked - Soviet submarine commander behaved as capitalist using luxurious car and personal driver in Finland. As it was impossible to take the private car away without scandal, Baltic Navy HQ ordered Marinesco to change the base and returned back underwater from Finland to Kronshtadt [hoping that Marinesco left his car in Finland]. But HQ officers were in more shock when they saw cabriolet in Kronshtadt - Marinesco ordered to perform surface run instead of under-water and fixed the car on the submarine deck :) All crewmembers reported that submarine went under-water and they didn't see any car on board because they liked Marinesco. But Baltic Navy HQ remembered his mutinous behaviour [and "enemy" Romanian origin] and called this to mind when Marinesco drank alcohol in Turku restaurant [he decided to organized the good banquet for Finnish officers there, but they didn't like to listen communist "International" music], also slept with proprietress of restaurant. Marinesco was awarded with the Hero of USSR Star in many years after his death, and he lived his last years in Kronshtadt as the poor and often drunken man without pension [his glorification began after his death also].
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 08 Apr 2007 14:08, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 08 Apr 2007 00:37

Walter Leotta wrote:
If commissioned, someone knows the commissioned's date and final fate of this subs? and fleet?
K-54
L-18
L-25
S-17
S-18
S-21
S-22
S-23
S-35
SC-103
SC-414
K-54 - laid down 30.04.1937 in Leningrad, launched 08.03.1941. Not finished, scrapped in 1949.

L-18 - laid down 30.12.1935 in Leningrad, transported in sections to Vladivostok. Launched 12.05.1938, accepted by Pacific Navy 10.10.1939. 09.08.1945 - served in 2nd division of 1st submarine brigade [Ulis bay], commander - captain 3rd rank V. Tsvetko. 22.08.1945 L-18 transported 60 marines to port Maoka [arrived 25.08.1945]. Removed from active service 18.04.1958 and reequipped into nonself-propelled damage control training station UTS-85 [still serves in Pacific in this role].

L-25 - laid down 23.10.1938 in Nikolaev, launched 26.02.1941. 22.06.1941 - in separate submarine division of Black Sea Navy in Nikolaev [commander - captain-lieutenant M. Nikiforov], finished on 63.2%. 11.08.1945 - the tow of L-25 began to Ochakov, then to Sevastopol, Tuapse and Poti. Not finished in 1941-1942 [crew was disbanded 07.01.1942]. 18.12.1944 L-25 sank during the tow to Sevastopol [15 miles from cape Pitsunda].

S-17 "Soviet Svanetia" - laid down 01.08.1939 in Gorky, launched 25.04.1940. Commander since 03.12.1942 - captain-lieutenant N. Firsov. 09.05.1944 - transportation of finished S-17 in floating dock from Gorky to Arkhangelsk began [arrived 21.05.1944]. Since 15.06.1944 - delivery trials. Commander since 24.06.1944 - captain 3rd rank E. Trofimov, since 01.02.1945 - captain 3rd rank Ya. Iosseliani. Since 20.05.1945 - served in North Navy. Removed from active service 29.12.1955 and reequipped into floating charge station PZS-29. Removed from service 12.03.1958, scrapped the same month.

S-18 - laid down 01.08.1940 in Gorky, launched 25.04.1941. It was towed to Astrakhan in summer 1942 for completion, 10.07.1945 - accepted by Caspian Flotilla. Moved from Baku to Baltic Sea in summer 1945 using internal waterway [since 25.08.1945 - in Baltic Sea Navy], transported to Kronshtadt in floating dock 09.1945. Removed from active service 17.02.1956, reequipped into nonself-propelled damage control training station UTS-12. Removed from service 04.10.1957, scrapped in 1960s in Leningrad.

S-21 - laid down 01.12.1939 in Leningrad, launched 29.05.1941. Transported to Astrakhan for completion in autumn 1941. 29.03.1946 - accepted by Caspian Flotilla, moved from Baku to Polarny in summer 1946 using internal waterway. Since 28.07.1946 - in North Navy. In 1949-1950 - moved to Far-East via North sea route, since 21.09.1950 - in 5th fleet, since 23.04.1953 - in Pacific Navy [bay Ulis]. 29.03.1957 - removed from active use, reequipped into floating charge station ZAS-13. 27.11.1959- removed from service and lied up, sank 26.10.1961 because of bad condition of hull. It was raised soon and scrapped.

S-22 - laid down 01.08.1940 in Gorky, launched 25.04.1941. Transported to Astrakhan for completion in autumn 1941. 15.07.1946 - accepted by Caspian Flotilla, moved from Baku to Polarny in autumn 1946 using internal waterway. Since 02.11.1946 - in North Navy. In 1949-1950 - moved to Far-East via North sea route, since 21.09.1950 - in 5th fleet, since 23.04.1953 - in Pacific Navy. 14.03.1955 - removed from active use, reequipped into floating charge station PZS-54. 30.01.1967- removed from service and scrapped the same year.

S-23 - laid down 01.08.1940 in Gorky, launched 25.04.1941. Moved to Polarny in spring 1947using internal waterway. 10.08.1947 - accepted by North Navy. In 1950 - moved to Far-East via North sea route, since 21.09.1950 - in 5th fleet, since 23.04.1953 - in Pacific Navy. 18.04.1958 - removed from active use, reequipped into floating charge station ZAS-15. 15.09.1960 - removed from service and scrapped the same year.

S-35 - laid down 23.02.1940 in Nikolaev, launched 17.07.1941. Transported to Sevastopol [08.1941, near Ochakov tug was exploded on sea mine and undamaged S-35 was towed by tanker "Moskva"] and later to Caucasian port Poti to avoid its capture by Germans. Commander - senior lieutenant V. Belozersky since 09.03.1943. Finished after the end of WWII, accepted by Black Sea Navy 18.02.1948. 04.1954 - moved to Baku, accepted by Caspian Flotilla. 17.02.1956 - removed from active use, reequipped into floating charge station PZS-36. 15.03.1962 - removed from service and scrapped.

Shch-103 "Carp" - laid down 20.03.1932 in Leningrad, transported in sections to Vladivostok, launched in 1933. Accepted by Naval Forces of Far-East 28.10.1933 [served in 1st submarine division of 2nd sea brigade]. Performed training mission in 1934. Since 11.01.1935 - in Pacific Navy. Performed 58-hours under-water run [150 miles] in 1935. Casted ashore by extremelly strong storm 4-5.11.1935, all crewmembers survived. Raised 27-28.03.1936 and towed to Vladivostok, scrapped till 06.1939.

Shch-414 - laid down 29.06.1939 in Leningrad, launched 28.06.1941, not finished, scrapped 23.07.1946. Its parts were used for finishing Shch-411 and Shch-412.
Walter Leotta wrote:
It's not possibile 172.785 brt total for 199 ships, it's too small. In this moment I've in my list 175 ships for 325.111 BRT
Byelorussian historian A.Taras [2004] and Russian historian K. Strelbitsky [1998] give the following number - Soviet submarines sank by torpedos and artillery fire 146 ships and warships [172.785 brt] during WWII + 46 ships/warships exploded on submarine's mines = 192 ships.
Professor Platonov [2004] gives the following number for submarines [my summing up of the data from his tables per year and navy, per torpedos/artillry/mines] - North Navy [37 ships - 95565 brt + 18 warships], Baltic Sea Navy [48 ships - 143265 brt + 5 warships], Black Sea Navy [35 ships - 56181 brt + 11 warships], Pacific Navy [4 ships - ~3900 brt]. So Soviet submarines sank 124 civil ships [298911 brt] and 34 warships during WWII = 158 ships. In reality this amount could be more significant as Platonov counted and desrcibed victories according to confirmed foreign sources only and doubt victories are not taken into consideration.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 08 Apr 2007 13:29

Walter Leotta asked about organization of Soviet submarine forces on 22.06.1941.

Black Sea Navy -

1st brigade of submarines [captain 1st rank P. Boltunov] in Sevastopol consisted of 4 divisions of submarines. 1st division [captain 3rd rank N. Novikov]: L-4, L-5, L-6; 2nd division [captain 3rd rank A. Buk]: D-4, D-5, D-6, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34; 3rd division [captain 3rd rank G. Kuz'min]: Shch-204, Shch-205, Shch-206, Shch-207, Shch-208, Shch-209, Shch-210 and depot ship "Volga"; 4th division [captain 3rd rank B. Uspensky]: Shch-211, Shch-212, Shch-213, Shch-214, Shch-215 and depot ship "Elbrus" ["Elborus"].
Note: L-4, L-6, D-4, D-6 and Shch-207 were under repair in Sevastopol; Shch-212, Shch-213, Shch-214, Shch-215 were under repair in Nikolaev on 22.06.1941.
* Depot ship "Volga" [10500 t, was built in 1928] was ex-Spanish passenger liner "Juan Sebastian Elcano" which could reach USSR after the fall of Spanish Republic in 1937; it was used for accomodation of submarine crewmembers only as the ship didn't have repair equipment.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/depots/pic/juan.jpg
* Depot ship "Elbrus" ("Elborus") [2650 t, was built in 1916] - special convoy vessel/depot ship for submarines. http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/depots/pic/elbrus.jpg

2nd brigade of submarines [captain 1st rank M. Solov'yov] in Sevastopol and Poti consisted of 3 divisions of submarines. 6th division [captain-lieutenant G. Bobrov] in Poti: A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5; 8th division [captain-lieutenant D. Larichev] in Sevastopol: M-35, M-36, M-111, M-112, M-113; 7th division [captain 3rd rank N. Klynin] in Sevastopol: M-31, M-32, M-33, M-34, M-58, M-59, M-60, M-62.
Note: A-1, A-2, A-3 and A-5 were under repair in Sevastopol on 22.06.1941.

Training division of submarines [captain 3rd rank L. Petrov] in Novorossisk: Shch-201, Shch-202, Shch-203, M-51, M-52, M-54, M-55.
Note: M-51, M-55 and Shch-203 were under repair in Sevastopol, M-54 was under repair in Kherson, Shch-202 tested torpedos in Feodosiya on 22.06.1941.

Division of built and rebuilt submarines [captain 1st rank I. Burmistrov] in Nikolaev: S-35, Shch-216, M-117, M-118, L-23, L-24, L-25, M-120.
S-36, S-37, S-38 were laid down in Nikolaev 22.02.1940, 27.11.1940 and 22.02.1941, correspondingly.
Note: L-24 and Shch-216 ran the trials in Sevastopol on 22.06.1941.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 08 Apr 2007 15:53

North Navy -

Brigade of submarines [captain 1st rank N. Vinogradov] in Polyarny consisted of 3 divisions of submarines. 1st division [captain 3rd rank M. Gadzhiev]: D-3, K-1 and K-2; 3rd division [captain 2nd rank I. Kolyshkin]: Shch-401, Shch-402, Shch-403, Shch-404, Shch-421, Shch-422; 4th division [captain 3rd rank N. Morozov]: M-171, M-172, M-173, M-174, M-175, M-176.
Note: two submarines of "K"-type were on the march from Baltic to the North using White Sea-Baltic channel on 22.06.1941.

North Navy lost 2 submarines before Great Patriotic War started:
* Shch-424 collided with fishing trawler ship RT-43 in Kola Bay and sank in 3 min at depth 250 m 20.10.1939 [35 crewmembers were lost, 7 crewmembers from the bridge and central compartment were rescued - they were punished fairly and very strictly for panic and failure to perform damage control whereas other crewmembers died on their places because nobody of those 7 closed door in flooding central compartment after collision];
* D-1 sank in Motovsk Bay of Barents Sea during deep-sea test dive after capital repair 13.11.1940 [probably, the submarine reached depth limit and crashed - depth there was 216 m]. Next morning rescue ships found oil spot, life ring, small wooden pieces and isolating cork in the point of tragedy.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Apr 2007 22:17

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote: 250m was too close, the torpedoes went under the target
1.5 cables is ~278 m.
Might be, depends to which countrys unit of measure one uses.
But anyway, 1,5 cables is wrong.
Juha wrote:Under or near the target - impossible to find out.
According to those that were there and survived, most probably, under.
BP wrote:
Juha wrote: At least the Soviet crew inside their bridge
Very probably, that Finnish artillerymen could be blinded by their shots. That happened very often during night artillery fire from deck guns.
Well...3 out of the 6 Bofors shots fired hit the target. Hardly possible blinded.
The ones at the receiving end were very probably blinded.
BP wrote:
Juha wrote: Unexpectedly to the Soviet crew.
And, probably, to Finns also.
Most probably not. The sub captain ordered full speed towards the enemy sub at very close distance.
BP wrote: of course, they reported that they ramed Soviet submarine even if submarines just collided.
Of course they reported ramming. That's what took place there.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote: Well...at least in front of the bridge.
Russian sources mention hit the left side of Shch-305 just behind the nose depth rudders. But as there were no survived Soviet eye-witnesses and IIRC there is no photo of sinking submarine in this case all info came from different Finnish sources only, in my opinion.
Of course the only real info comes from the ~10 Finns that saw what happened there, and lived to tell.

BP wrote: "Rheinbek" was a neutral ship [German]
(Reinbek/Reinbeck ?) Well...not exactly neutral...sort of ally.
BP wrote: Nevertheless, HQ ordered submarine to return back to the base 15.12.1939 to prevent further incidents.
Wise move.

Regards, Juha

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