Captured Soviet naval vessels in Finnish use?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 23:55

BIGpanzer wrote:Much more correct is to say that Finnish forces using some captured Soviet small armored motor-boat which was classified in Finnish navy as patrol gunboat.
See above.
Gunboats were more larger and stronger ships than armored motor-boats of type 1125 according to Soviet classifications.


Finns could capture several Soviet torpedo boats:

At Finnish category we didn't capture any Soviet Torpedo boats (during WWII)
But four Motor Torpedo Boats we did capture.
Torpedo boats were more larger and stronger ships than motor torpedo boats according to Finnish classifications.

BP wrote:1. TKA No. 47 [type G-5] - 26.06.1941 it participated [together with 3 another torpedo boats] in evacuation of HQ and command of Libau naval base to Vindau. Was attacked by German torpedo boats and capitulated in undamaged condition [as such case was quite unusual for Russian/Soviet naval traditions, the loss of traitor boat was described as loss in heavy combat with Germans]. Later Germans gave it to Finns, who used it as "Viima".

2. TKA No. 52 [type D-3] - 14.10.1941 lost his place in group of torpedo boats during mission Gogland-Hango because of storm [near bank Kallbedari], was captured by Finns and used as patrol boat "Vasama". 26.10.1944 - returned back to USSR [used till 06.10.1949].

3. TKA No. 64 [type G-5] - 16.10.1941 ran aground and was captured by Finns, served as No. 122. Returned back to USSR in 1944.

4. TKA No. 141 [type G-5] - 16.10.1941 ran aground and was captured by Finns, served as "Vipuri". Returned back to USSR in 1944.

5. TKA No. 51 [type G-5] - 17.06.1944 was damaged by artillery fire and captured by Finns, served as No. 123. Returned back to USSR in 1944.

AFAIK:
TKA 47 never served at Finnish Navy
TKA 52 served both as MTB and patrol boat (VMV = VartioMoottoriVene = patrol motor boat) as Vasama
TKA 64 and TKA 141 under names V-2 / Vihuri / 222 and V-3(later V-1) / Viima / 223
TKA 51 under name V-3

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 09:20

But four Motor Torpedo Boats we did capture.
Torpedo boats were more larger and stronger ships than motor torpedo boats according to Finnish classifications.

The same for Soviet classifications of small vessels [differ from larger gunboats :wink: ] - of course, they were torpedo motor-boats, not torpedo boats [a.k.a. "small destroyers"].
I misprinted, not mistook :?
TKA means IIRC Torpedny Kater = torpedo motor-boat on Russian
MTV means IIRC Moottori Torpedo Vene = torpedo motor-boat on Finnish

Juha wrote:
TKA 47 never served at Finnish Navy

Interesting, as my German and Russian sources mention that it was captured by Germans and was given to Finns later [but indeed, no mentions about it as Finnish naval vessel]. Could it be used as auxiliary vessel or training vessel by Finns, for example?
Some historians mention it as "Viima" in Finnish service which is wrong - "Viima" was ex-TKA No. 64 in reality.

Regards, BP

P.S.1. "Classical" gunboats of Finnish Navy [340-530 tons] :wink: - "Hameenmaa" [ex-Imperial Russian "Pingvin", ex-German "Wulf"], "Uusimaa" [ex-Imperial Russian "Golub", ex-German "Beo"], "Karjala" [ex-Imperial Russian "Filin"], "Turunmaa" [ex-Imperial Russian "Orlan"], auxiliary gunboats "Aunus" [ex-"Kingston Emerald"] and "Viena" [ex-"Conan Doyle"]

P.S. 2. About TKA No. 52 - it was damaged by storm off Gogland 14.10.1941, ran aground and was found by Finns 23.10.1941 sunken in Borstö [what did happen with crewmembers - lost in storm?]. Raised, repaired and used as "Vasama" [also as V-1 according to my sources]. When it was returned back to USSR in autumn 1944, it served as patrol motor-boat SK-37 since 02.1945.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/mtb/pic/vasama.jpg ["Vasama", ex-TKA-52].

P.S.3. About TKA No. 141 and No. 64 - they ran aground and damaged in October 1941, abandoned and was captured by Finns in November 1941.
Juha wrote:
TKA 64 and TKA 141 under names V-2 / Vihuri / 222 and V-3(later V-1) / Viima / 223

You confused their name order or misprinted. TKA-141 was "Vihuri", V-2 and TKA-64 was "Viima", V-3 (since 1943 - V-1). When they were returned back to USSR in autumn 1944, they served as torpedo boats TK-141 and TK-70 in Soviet Baltic Sea Navy, correspondingly.
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygaller ... al/PG5.jpg ["Vihuri", ex-TKA-

P.S. 4. TKA No. 51 was heavily damaged by artillery fire, captured by Finns 17.06.1944, served as V-3 after repair. Returned back to USSR soon [in autumn 1944] and served as torpedo boat TK-90.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 08 May 2007 15:50, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 10:05

Some more info:

Finnish mine-sweepers "Narvi", "Jurmo" and "Luppi" were initially river tugs for USSR [ordered by Soviets in 1940]. When the Great Patriotic war started in June 1941 - confiscated by Finns and reequipped into mine-sweepers. Returned back to USSR in 1944.

Finnish mine-sweepers of "Viipuri"-type [4 copies] - were also tugs, which were built by Finnish shipyard "Crichton-Vulkan" in Aabo for USSR [shipyard numbers 761-764]. In June 1941 - factory tests, confiscated by Finns when the Great Patriotic war started and accepted by navy under their shipyard numbers [but No. 761 was called "Viipuri"]. Used as patrol boats mainly, returned back to USSR where they served as magnetic mine-sweepers EMTShCh-70, 71, 72, 73 after WWII.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 08 May 2007 10:46, edited 1 time in total.

Janne
Member
Posts: 473
Joined: 15 Feb 2006 11:53
Location: Helsinki

Post by Janne » 08 May 2007 10:32

http://shipandship.chat.ru/foto/k/098.jpg

BTW what action (and where) is this picture depicting?

]

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 10:57

Hi, Janne!
No inscription under picture....The single illustration of ramming by Soviet armored motor-boats I could googled.
I guess this picture came from Soviet source of 1970s-1980s [so it could be not 100% correct in historical details] and it shows the ramming of German patrol motor-boat by Soviet small armored motor-boat BKA-213.
~8-10 enemy vessels were rammed by BKA-213 and BKA-214 at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941. Their captains were not awarded with any decorations for that quite unique combat because of chaos of summer 1941.
In reality the vessels were landing boats/ferries, and it was Finnish not German [but AFAIK Finns were seldom described as fascists or enemies during the Great Patriotic war in Soviet historical literature because of good diplomatic/economic relations between two countries ("socialistic" and "capitalistic") during the Cold war].

The another guess about depicted event [more possible] - ramming of German motor-boat by BKA-213 11.07.1944 at Chudskoe/Peipus Lake during night combat between 2 Soviet and 4 German vessels in the northern part of the lake. For sure BKA-213 was used to be ram :wink: [captains were differ - lieutenant Venedict Tunguskov in 1941 and lieutenant A. Samarin in 1944].
BKA-13 ran aground at Königsberg Bay 26.04.1945 and destroyed by enemy coastal guns. Probably raised and repaired later [as the name BKA-213 is listed among armored motor-boats of Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy of 1950s].
BKA-214 exploded on mine off Pillau 25.04.1945 and destroyed by enemy artillery fire.

Regards, BP

P.S. To Juha - differences between armored motor-boats of projects 1124 and 1125 [both were developed by chief designer of central ship design office No.42 Julius Benua (of French origin), excellent designer of Soviet serial very comfortable passenger river boats of 1930s - so called "river limousines"]. Nevertheless, inhabitation of armored motor-boats of his projects was not so good because of low height of ceilings [1.55 m only] as the main aim was to develop powerful and well-protected armored motor-boats that case.

1125 -
http://www.vmk.tsure.ru/misc/ship_model ... _boat3.jpg
http://www.vmk.tsure.ru/misc/ship_model ... _boat4.jpg [note upper turret with 12.7mm MGs]
1124 [larger motor-boat] -
http://www.vmk.tsure.ru/misc/ship_model ... _boat1.jpg
Models are from Central museum of Russian navy in St. Petersburg, probably [AFAIK the museum has one of the largest collection of very detailed models of warships of all times, made in XVIII-XX c.c.].

P.S. A little bit off-topic, sorry :wink:

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 14:55

BIGpanzer wrote:The same for Soviet classifications of small vessels [differ from larger gunboats :wink: ] - of course, they were torpedo motor-boats, not torpedo boats [a.k.a. "small destroyers"].
Yes, there were larger and smaller gunboats.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:TKA 47 never served at Finnish Navy

Interesting, as my German and Russian sources mention that it was captured by Germans and was given to Finns later [but indeed, no mentions about it as Finnish naval vessel]. Could it be used as auxiliary vessel or training vessel by Finns, for example?
AFAIK not at Finnish Navy inventory.




BP wrote:P.S. 2. About TKA No. 52 - it was damaged by storm off Gogland 14.10.1941, ran aground and was found by Finns 23.10.1941 sunken in Borstö [what did happen with crewmembers - lost in storm?]. Raised, reaired and used as "Vasama" [also as V-1 according to my sources]
Don't know about the crew, have to try to check.
As V-1 to 26th Jan-44

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:TKA 64 and TKA 141 under names V-2 / Vihuri / 222 and V-3(later V-1) / Viima / 223

You confused their name order or misprinted.
Nope, neither.
I didn't (intentionally) mention which was which.


BP wrote:TKA-141 was "Vihuri", V-2 and TKA-64 was "Viima", V-3 (since 1943 - V-1).
The designation of Viima was changed 27th Jan-44 from V-3 to V-1 (note the date of designation deletion at Vasama above)


BP wrote:P.S. 4. TKA No. 51 was heavily damaged by artillery fire, captured by Finns 17.06.1944, served as V-3 after repair.
As VTV-1 earlier, AFAIK the V-3 wasn't heavily damaged as it too saw action quite soon at the hands of the new owners.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 15:32

Juha wrote:
Yes, there were larger and smaller gunboats.

You are outstanding bore :lol:
I was talking about Soviet classification initially not about Finnish [and this is very obvious, see above]. There was no "captured Soviet gunboat" in the case of Soviet small armored motor-boat B-215. But Finns reclassified it as patrol gunboat, yes. Would you like to discuss this again and again?

Juha wrote:
I didn't (intentionally) mention which was which.

Why so - even intentionally? To give the corresponding names [Russian-Finnish-Russian] for every vessel mentioned above is more useful for correctness the data about them. I prefer this way if possible [corresponding names].


P.S.
"Vihuri"/V-2 [ex-Soviet No. 141] - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/mtb/pic/vihuri.jpg
"Viima"/V-3/V-1 [ex-Soviet No. 64] - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/mtb/pic/viima.jpg
All those torpedo boats were returned back to USSR in autumn 1944 and after overhaul were accepted by Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy again. What was the reason of overhaul - bad condition after wartime service in Finnish Navy or reequipment back according to Soviet naval standards?

I realized that authors which mention that those torpedo boats served in Finnish Navy under names No. 122 and No. 123 mistake - they had numbers 222 and 223, and those were tactical numbers, not names.

P.S.2
Soviet TK-51 [future Finnish V-3 and Soviet TK-90] together with TK-101 sank German mine-sweeper M37 04.06.1944.

Finnish "Vihuri" [ex-Soviet No. 141] together with "Syöksy" and "Vinha" sank Soviet gunboat(! :wink: ) "Krasnoe znamya" ("Red banner") 18.11.1942. "Krasnoe znamya" [built in 1895 as "Hrabry" [1790 tons] and participated in WWI, Russian Civil war, Winter war and Great Patriotic war] was anchored near Lavansaari and torpedoed by Finns; raised by Soviets 13.11.1943, repaired and accepted by Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy 17.09.1944 again [home port - Helsinki till the end of WWII]
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/camouflage/pic/hrabry_45.jpg ["Krasnoe znamya" in 1945]

Interesting that gunboat "Krasnoe znamya" served together with Soviet sea monitor [gunboat :wink: ] "Vyborg" [ex-Finnish battleship of coastal defense "Väinämöinen] after WWII, and they were scrapped together also.
Sailor nicknames of those ships in Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy: "Red Banner" - "koza"/goat, "Vyborg" - "m...dishchev" [smth. like f...cking, acording to explanation of my Russian colleague] because of its main mast shape :lol:
http://www.hobbyshop.ru/com/com70222.jpg ["Vyborg" in 1947]


Regards, BP

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 17:51

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:Yes, there were larger and smaller gunboats.

You are outstanding bore :lol:
I was talking about Soviet classification initially not about Finnish [and this is very obvious, see above]. There was no "captured Soviet gunboat" in the case of Soviet small armored motor-boat B-215. But Finns reclassified it as patrol gunboat, yes. Would you like to discuss this again and again?
I have only written about the Finnish designation of it.
BP earlier wrote:patrol boat VTV-1
no Finnish patrol boat VTV-1
BP wrote:All those torpedo boats were returned back to USSR
Not torpedo boats, but MTB's
BP wrote:ex-Finnish battleship of coastal defense "Väinämöinen
no such either.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:I didn't (intentionally) mention which was which.

Why so - even intentionally?
Because it was too late night for me to check the details.
To post corrections was enough for me at that time of "day"



BP wrote:P.S.2
Soviet TK-51 [future Finnish V-3 and Soviet TK-90] together with TK-101 sank German mine-sweeper M37 04.06.1944.
Interesting.
About three months later the same boat attacked German (also M-class) ships, this time at Finnish hands.

BP wrote:Finnish "Vihuri" [ex-Soviet No. 141] together with "Syöksy" and "Vinha" sank Soviet gunboat(! :wink: ) "Krasnoe znamya"
Yes, a large Soviet gunboat.
http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/ ... znamja.htm
http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/ ... okkays.jpg

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 18:11

IIRC torpedo motor-boats of "Viima"-type [ex-Soviet G-5] served in 3rd flotilla [captain-lieutenant of reserve Lehtonena] of 1st flotilla [captain 3rd rank Perhonen]. Some naval historians think that the capture of 3rd boat of the type G-5 was the reason of organization of 3rd flotilla with only G-5 in Finnish Navy, so the names of two already existed motor-boats were changed.

Vasama - arrow
Viima - wind
Vihuri - whirlwind [interesting, that similar to Russian word - Vihr; common words of Finno-Ugric origin?]

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 18:20

OK, we came into conclusion about Soviet/Finnish designations for warships :wink:

Juha wrote:
I have only written about the Finnish designation of it

And I have only written about initial Soviet designations of it. Gunboats should be at least ~10 times larger in displacement than small armored motor-boat in Russian/Soviet Navy.

Juha wrote:
Yes, a large Soviet gunboat.

None, no such either. There were only river and sea-going gunboats in Soviet Navy :wink:

Regards, BP.

P.S. VTV - yes, patrol gunboats [I wrote a little bit differ - patrol boat]. MTB - yes, torpedo motor-boats [I misprinted and used this several times as torpedo boats, which were much larger].
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 08 May 2007 18:30, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 18:24

BIGpanzer wrote:IIRC torpedo motor-boats of "Viima"-type [ex-Soviet G-5] served in 3rd flotilla [captain-lieutenant of reserve Lehtonena] of 1st flotilla [captain 3rd rank Perhonen]. Some naval historians think that the capture of 3rd boat of the type G-5 was the reason of organization of 3rd flotilla with only G-5 in Finnish Navy, so the names of two already existed motor-boats were changed.
Don't know.



BP wrote:Vasama - arrow
Viima - wind
Vihuri - whirlwind [interesting, that similar to Russian word - Vihr; common words of Finno-Ugric origin?]

Impressing.
Vasama = IIRC (crossbow bolt) arrow
Viima and Vihuri = ...winds (Vihr, might be of Fenno-Ugric origin, don't know)
Do you know this: http://www.tracetech.net/sanat/ ?
A pretty good Fin-Eng-Fin translator (IIRC Harri once recommended it, and I've been using it every now and then)

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 18:28

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote wrote:I have only written about the Finnish designation of it

And I have only written about initial Soviet designations of it
Have you?

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Yes, a large Soviet gunboat.

None, no such either. There were only river and sea-going gunboats in Soviet Navy :wink:
Were there then:
BP earlier wrote:Soviet small armored motor-boat


Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004 22:51
Location: Central Europe

Post by BIGpanzer » 08 May 2007 18:47

Juha wrote:
Were there then:
BP earlier wrote:
Soviet small armored motor-boat

Yes, and what?! Where do you see the word gunboat here?
There were large and small armored motor-boats in official Soviet classification indeed, but there were no large and small sea-going gunboats [about river gunboats I am not 100% sure, but seems to be also].

Juha wrote:
Have you?

Sure - the initial talk was that Christian named VTV-1 as "captured Soviet gunboat" which is very incorrect as it made impression about quite large warship. That was captured Soviet small armored motor-boat.
Juha = Bore...................... :P

As for "Väinämöinen" - quite many books mention it as battleship of coastal defense [and those databases never mention small armored motor-boats as gunboats :lol: ]. Yes, I know that in reality it was "coastal defense ship" [rannikkopuolustuksen panssarilavia]. Exact translation, please! Please, post some useful info instead of "corrections" sometimes :wink:

Juha wrote:
Impressing.
Vasama = IIRC (crossbow bolt) arrow
Viima and Vihuri = ...winds (Vihr, might be of Fenno-Ugric origin, don't know)
Do you know this: http://www.tracetech.net/sanat/ ?

Impressing?! This is very sad as I forgot Finnish a lot [several years ago I could talk on Finnish quite fast, at least sometimes :wink: ]

Juha wrote:
Do you know this: http://www.tracetech.net/sanat/ ?

Thanks a lot! Hope, this will be useful.

Regards, BP

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 20:59

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:Were there then:
BP earlier wrote:
Soviet small armored motor-boat

Yes, and what?! Where do you see the word gunboat here?
There were large and small armored motor-boats in official Soviet classification indeed,
Actually I was looking for the word "small" at the Soviet official classification at this occasion.

JT wrote:
BP wrote:I have only written about initial Soviet designations of it

Have you?
BP wrote:Sure
BP earlier wrote:patrol boat VTV-1


BP wrote:- the initial talk was that Christian named VTV-1 as "captured Soviet gunboat" which is very incorrect as it made impression about quite large warship.
In Finnish terminology gunboat size can vary quite much from small gun armed motorboats to Krasnoje Znamja size large gunboat types.

BP wrote:As for "Väinämöinen" - quite many books mention it as battleship of coastal defense
Many incorrect sources you then have read.
BP wrote: Yes, I know that in reality it was "coastal defense ship" [rannikkopuolustuksen panssarilavia]. Exact translation, please!
AFAIK Väinämöinen was either Panssarilaiva (sometimes also mentioned as Rannikkopanssarilaiva)
Panssari = ~armour, armoured
Laiva = ship
Rannikko = ~coast, coastal
But the "Coastal (Coast) Defence Ship" IMHO is a good translation.

BP wrote:Please, post some useful info instead of "corrections" sometimes
If you don't like to be corrected, why did you then start that here?

BP wrote:Impressing?! This is very sad as I forgot Finnish a lot [several years ago I could talk on Finnish quite fast, at least sometimes
Even more impressing.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11422
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 May 2007 21:41


Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”