Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 22 Jun 2007 20:24

BIGpanzer wrote: let me find the more detailed info than just mentions in books about Winter war
Just post the source where you base your claims.
If you have any.
.
BIGpanzer wrote:[nevertheless, I already provide you with the cited source and with several exact names of army eye-witnesses - about hospital massacres I mean].
I asked facts.
And already before asked about the place names of your claims, even which you have been unable to present.
BIGpanzer wrote:One of these materials - chapter in Nuremberg tribunal protocol directly about the actions of Finns.
As reliable as the Soviet attempt there to blame Germans for the Katyn massacres ?
BIGpanzer wrote:During waiting you can
No.
We don't have to wait for your sources.
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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 676#990676

Regards, Juha

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 23 Jun 2007 15:14

The (barbed) wire things sound either Soviet propaganda or job of the NKVD. It is of course handy to accuse "the enemy" of own suspicious atrocities because they "confirm" the claims of the domestic propaganda. Those who spread false information can say: "Now you see, we were right". I'd ask what was done if someone for example stole food?

Finns who knew about the fears of Soviet soldiers did numerous "tricks" not to calm down these "horror stories" but to increase them. These acts belonged to the series "boys are boys". From the Soviet point of view they without doubt looked different, and that was exactly the meaning.

While puukko was a multitool like Jarkko mentioned it was relatively seldom used in combat because it was also part of the table cutlery. Or would you think same knives would have been used in combat to kill Soviet soldiers and then for cutting bread? I wouldn't. Thus Soviet "knive stories" belong to the same category as the legendary "cuckoo" ones.

In combat against bunkers it is always the safest to use hand grenades to suppress possible resistance. I think the ones who surrendered were captured and saved their lives and the ones who continued resistance were destroyed. That's the way in the war. I'd ask did the Soviets surrender at Lemetti? I think the answer is negative? So, where were the claimed "atrocities" then?

A relative of mine was in 1940 in Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment (URR) who fought against
encircled Soviets and he told about the fierce battles. Because Finns usually had no larger calibre support weapons than 81 mm mortars and Maxim MGs battles were costly to the Finns too. There were no flame-throwers which would have been effective against bunkers and dugouts. Because both sides were close to each others on a small area artillery fire was not always possible to use.

Bunkers and stationed tanks were taken one by one in close combat using SMGs, hand grenades, conbustion bottles and satchel charges. Usually Soviet soldiers didn't surrender before their leaders had died. Combat took place mostly in darkness which covers most of the day during winters.

There are no reliable proves that Finns would have killed wounded surrendered Soviets at Lemetti or anywhere else during the WInter War. It is impossible to know how reliable Soviet sources are, but there are hints which suggest strongly to propaganda.

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Jun 2007 16:54

JT wrote:
Just post the source where you base your claims.
If you have any.
:lol: :? Not any but a lot well-known [for Russians, I began such searches recently] info. For sure [as I understood from your posts], such kind of info is not "popular" among Finnish historians. I never post "just opinions" as you, probably, know. At first I need to say that almost all modern sources about Winter war and war in Karelia in 1941-1944 on Russian [the list of the books about Winter war I bought in Karelia in the beg2000s, please see above] mentions the following [my generalized translation]: "Many veterans mention exceptional Finnish cruelty together with their discipline and bravery. A lot of cases when Finnish soldiers killed wounded men by knives on battlefields after combats are known. As well as the attacks of Finnish ski diversion groups against hospitals. Soviet soldiers considered that to be captured by Finns is much worser than to be captured by Germans. The phenomenon of "Finnophobia" among some Soviet soldiers had also one reason - quite often stealth attempts of Finnish scout/diversion skiers to kill with knives guardmen or observes in forward trenches during the nighttime, that was usual practice during the war from every side but Finnish scouts were among the most skillful and stealthy". So this is the general reason of such opinions in Russian literature and I guess that such facts could be increase also by Soviet propaganda during the war [here I agree with Harri to some degree].

As for known cases about massacres of hospital staff - see the cited source above [bolded, this reference is given in many sources]. I don't have this original source from the Karelian research centre as all books I have [about the history of the war, not about only war crimes] I already mentioned above. But lets try to ask somebody to find this research source to get the exact names/locations of those hospitals.
JT wrote:
BP wrote: BIGpanzer íàïèñà:
During waiting you can
No.
We don't have to wait for your sources.
Always quote sentences in full, correct ant honest way!
"We" :lol: But you will wait the info as much as is needful otherwise try to find and translate them by yourself! It is interesting for me that I never saw "objective" replies on some Finnish posts concerning disclaimers the facts of strict punishments of Soviet soldiers in the case of rapes or thefts in Western Europe in 1944-1945, is this "double standard policy" or inattention?

Well, from http://artofwar.ru/r/razzhiwin_a_e/text_0060.shtml I already mentioned here. The Soviet commission [from 54 corps?] report in Lemetti about 18th division -
Èç îôèöèàëüíîãî çàêëþ÷åíèÿ êîìèññèè: "...Ïðè îñìîòðå óñòàíîâëåíî, ÷òî, íåñìîòðÿ íà íàëè÷èå ñìåðòåëüíûõ ðàíåíèé, çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ïîãèáøèõ íîñèò ñëåäû ïðèñòðåëèâàíèÿ â ãîëîâó è äîáèâàíèÿ ïðèêëàäàìè. Îäèí èç ïîãèáøèõ, îáóòûé â ôèíñêèå ñàïîãè ïåêñû, ïðèñòàâëåí ê äåðåâó ââåðõ íîãàìè. Æåíà èíñòðóêòîðà ïîëèòîòäåëà 18 ñä Ñìèðíîâà (ðàáîòàâøàÿ ïî ïàðòó÷åòó â ïîëèòîòäåëå) áûëà îáíàæåíà è ìåæäó íîã ó ïîëîâîãî îðãàíà âñòàâëåíà íàøà ðó÷íàÿ ãðàíàòà. Ñ áîëüøèíñòâà êîìàíäíîãî ñîñòàâà ñîäðàíû ïåòëèöû è íàðóêàâíûå çíàêè. Îðäåíà, èìåâøèåñÿ ó êîìàíäíîãî ñîñòàâà, ôèííàìè âûðûâàëèñü ñ ìàòåðèåé".
From the official conclusion "...During inspection of the place it was found that the significant part of dead men with initially fatal wounds had head shots and were smashed by rifle butts. One of the dead, who wore Finnish boots, was put to the tree upside down. The wife of political instructor of 18th division Smirnova [she worked in political department as clerk] was found naked with Soviet grenade between legs. The tabs and sleeve insignias of the majority of commanders were torn off. Orders of commanders were torn off by Finns together with fabric"....
Íà ìåñòå â ðàéîíå îáîðîíû ÊÏ îáíàðóæåíî 513 íàøèõ òðóïîâ,
êàê â îêîïàõ, òàê è âíå îêîïîâ.
 ðàéîíå ïðîðûâà îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà êîëîííîé Íà÷àëüíèêà Øòàáà 18 ñä ïîëêîâíèêà Àëåêñååâà îáíàðóæåíî 201 òðóï, â îñíîâíîì â ðàéîíå îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà è ó ïðîâîëî÷íûõ çàãðàæäåíèé.  ðàéîíå ïðîðûâà îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà êîëîííîé Íà÷àëüíèêà Øòàáà 34 ëòáð ïîëêîâíèêà Ñìèðíîâà îáíàðóæåíî 150 òðóïîâ, â ãîñïèòàëüíûõ çåìëÿíêàõ îáíàðóæåíî 120 òðóïîâ, îñòàâøèõñÿ òÿæåëîðàíåíûõ. Ôèíñêèõ òðóïîâ íå îáíàðóæåíî, ò. ê. òàêîâûå ôèííàìè áûëè óáðàíû â ïåðèîä ñ 29.2.40 ïî 17.3.40 ã.
Èç îñòàâøèõñÿ áîåâûõ ìàøèí âîîðóæåíèé èçúÿòî è âûâåçåíî ôèííàìè: ñî âñåõ òðàíñïîðòíûõ ìàøèí ñíÿòû êîëåñà è â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ÷àñòè ìîòîðû. ×àñòü áîåâûõ è òðàíñïîðòíûõ ìàøèí ôèííàìè âûâåçåíà, î ÷åì ñâèäåòåëüñòâóþò ñëåäû âûâîäà ìàøèí. Âñÿ ìàòåðèàëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ïî ñâîåìó ñîñòîÿíèþ ÿâëÿåòñÿ áåçâîçâðàòíî ïîòåðÿííîé...
Near command post 513 our dead men were found, in trenches and outside them. In the place of breakthrough [column of 18th divisional HQ commander colonel Alekseev] 201 dead men were found. In the place of breakthrough [column of 24th LTB HQ commander colonel Smirnov] 150 dead men were found. In hospital dugouts 120 abandoned heavily wounded men were found. Finnish dead men were not found as Finns took them between 29.02.40 - 17.03.1940.
Finns took wheels and engines [from the significant part] of abandoned transport vehicles. The part of armored and transport vehicles were removed by Finns according to found tracks [I have the exact info from Aptekar's article - post this later, BP]. All equipment was fully lost..."
About cases of massacres of wounded men by Finns on battlefield [I found a lot of material in google as well as in Russian forums - a strong discussions with all possible proofs/disproofs from "Finnish-supporters" and "Russian-supporters" about Finns near Moscow and their cruelty]
http://www.trizna.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 574a1daf68

But I would like to cite two veterans from Artem Driabkin [friend of Bair] cite http://www.iremember.ru
AFAIK journalist A. Driabkin found a lot of Russian WWII veterans in 2000-2007 and published several books of their memoires in style short question-detailed answer [as well as their memeires online. Great job I need to say].
http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?optio ... mitstart=1
[Memoires of artilleryman M.I. Lukinov]:
Áûëî ìíîãî ñëó÷àåâ çâåðñòâ, êîãäà ôèííû óáèâàëè íîæàìè íàøèõ ðàíåíûõ, êîòîðûõ íå óñïåâàëè óáðàòü ñ ïîëÿ áîÿ. ß ñàì âèäåë â áèíîêëü, êàê íà ïîëÿíå, ê êîòîðîé íåëüçÿ áûëî ïîäîéòè áëèçêî èç-çà ñòðåëÿþùèõ «êóêóøåê», ëåæàëî íåñêîëüêî òåë íàøèõ ñîëäàò. È êîãäà îäèí èç íèõ äåëàë ïîïûòêó ïîäíÿòüñÿ, òî èç ëåñà ñ äåðåâüåâ ïî íåìó ðàçäàâàëèñü âûñòðåëû. Îäèí èç ðàíåíûõ ðàññêàçûâàë, ÷òî êîãäà ïîñëå áîÿ îí ëåæàë ðàíåíûé íà ñíåãó, ê íåìó ïîäúåõàë ôèíí è ñêàçàë ïî-ðóññêè: «Ëåæèøü, Èâàí? Íó, ëåæè, ëåæè». Åùå õîðîøî, ÷òî íå äîáèë, à âåäü òàêèõ ñëó÷àåâ áûëî ìíîãî.
"There were many cases of brutality when Finns killed by knives our wounded men, who were not evacuated from the battlefield. I saw in binocular by myself that several bodies of our soldiers lied on the opening place, where it was impossible to come closer because of snipers. And when soldier made attempt to stand up, it was fired from the trees. One of the wounded men told later, that when he lied on the battlefield after combat, Finn came to him and said on Russian: "Lie up, Ivan? Okh, lie up, lie up". Good, that Finn didn't kill him, there were many such cases"
http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?optio ... iew&id=408
[memoires of infantryman Frenklah I.Z.]
Âîò âû õîòèòå ñëûøàòü ñîëäàòñêóþ ïðàâäó, íî… Êîìó ýòî ñåé÷àñ íóæíî?
Äëÿ ìåíÿ ýòî ñåðüåçíàÿ äèëëåìà. Åñëè ãîâîðèòü î âîéíå âñþ ïðàâäó, ñ ïðåäåëüíîé ÷åñòíîñòüþ è èñêðåííîñòüþ, òî ñðàçó äåñÿòêè ãîëîñîâ «óðà-ïàòðèîòîâ» íà÷íóò îðàòü – î÷åðíÿåò, êëåâåùåò, êîùóíñòâóåò, íàñìåõàåòñÿ, çàëÿïûâàåò ãðÿçüþ, ãëóìèòñÿ íàä ïàìÿòüþ è ñâåòëûì îáðàçîì, è òàê äàëåå…
Åñëè ðàññêàçûâàòü â ñòèëå «à-ëÿ ïîëèòðóê èç ÃëàâÏÓÐà », ìîë — «ñòîéêî è ãåðîè÷åñêè, ìàëîé êðîâüþ, ìîãó÷èì óäàðîì, ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì óìíûõ è ïîäãîòîâëåííûõ êîìàíäèðîâ…» — òî ìåíÿ îò òàêèõ ëèöåìåðíûõ è ôàëüøèâûõ ðå÷åé è îò ÷âàíëèâîãî ñîâåòñêîãî îôèçèîçà âñåãäà òîøíèëî…
Âåäü âàøå èíòåðâüþ áóäóò ÷èòàòü ëþäè, âîéíû íå âèäåâøèå è íåçíàêîìûå ñ ðåàëèÿìè òîãî âðåìåíè, è âîîáùå íåçíàþùèå ïîäëèííóþ öåíó âîéíû. ß íå õî÷ó, ÷òîáû êòî-òî, íå èìåþùèé ìàëåéøåãî ïîíÿòèÿ êàêîé íà ñàìîì äåëå áûëà âîéíà, çàÿâèë, ÷òî ÿ ðàññêàçûâàþ «áàéêè» èëè èçëèøíå òðàãåäèçèðóþ ïðîøëîå. Áûëè êîíå÷íî ãåðîè, íî áûëè è òîëïû ïàíèêåðîâ, «äðàïàëüùèêîâ».
Áûëî ìàññîâîå, íè÷åì íå îïðàâäàííîå, áåññìûñëåííîå ñàìîïîæåðòâîâàíèå, ïî âîëå íàøèõ äåáèëüíûõ êîìàíäàðìîâ. Âîò âû ñ ìîèì ñîñåäîì ïî óëèöå, áûâøèì « øòðàôíèêîì» Åôèìîì Ãîëüáðàéõîì îïóáëèêîâàëè èíòåðâüþ. Íà äíÿõ ïîñìîòðåë â Èíòåðíåòå îáñóæäåíèÿ ïðî÷èòàííîãî òåêñòà. È ìåíÿ âçáåñèëî ñëåäóþùåå. Ìîëîäûå ëþäè îáâèíÿþò âåòåðàíà â òîì, ÷òî îí ÷åñòíî ðàññêàçàë, ÷òî â ñåðåäèíå îêòÿáðÿ ñîðîê ïåðâîãî â Ìîñêâå áûëà äèêàÿ ïàíèêà è áûëî íåìàëî òàêèõ, ñ ïîçâîëåíèÿ ñêàçàòü, «ãðàæäàí», êîòîðûå ñî ñïîêîéíîé äóøîé æäàëè íåìöåâ. Ìîë, êàê îí ñìååò, è ò. ä.
À îòêóäà ýòè ìîëîäûå ëþäè ìîãóò çíàòü, ÷òî òàì òâîðèëîñü íà ñàìîì äåëå?
You want to know the soldier truth about the war. But...does anybody need it today?
This is a serious problem for me. If to tell about the war all truth, with the most possible honesty and openness - immediately tens voices of "Hurrah-patriotes" began to cry that I say in "black words", slander, blaspheme, laugh, scoff at patriotism etc.
If to tell in the style of "commissars" - "bravely and heroically, with small losses, powerful strength, under the command of clever and experienced commanders..." - I was always puked from such false speeches and from snobbish Soviet official propaganda.
Your interview will be read by men who don't see the war and don't know the realities of the war, they don't know the real cost of the war. And I don't want that somebody who knows completelly nothing about what kind of the real war was, claims that I tell "rumors" or describe only tragedies of the past.
There were real heroes indeed but there were crowds of alarmists also.....There were massive senseless self-abnegation because of command of our moron high rank commanders.
For example, you published the interview with my neughbour, ex-member of penal battalion Efim Golbreich, and I saw the opinions about that interview in Internet. And I was very angry that youth accused him that he told honestly what happened in Moscow in October 1941 [when was a great panics, plunder of shops and there were a lot of men who waited Germans indeed]. And youth cried: "How the veteran can say such facts?!" But I am asking these youth: "Do you know what happened in Moscow in reality?"...
I cited this fragment especially to illustrate the honesty of veteran.
His memoires about Finns:
Íà Êàðåëüñêèé ïåðåøååê äîáðîâîëüöåâ èç íàøåãî áàòàëüîíà îòïðàâëÿëè íåáîëüøèìè ãðóïïàìè. Ñíà÷àëà íàïðàâèëè òåõ, êòî èìåë îïûò ñðî÷íîé ñëóæáû â àðìèè è íà ôëîòå. Èç íàøåãî èíñòèòóòà â ïåðâóþ ãðóïïó ïîïàëî äåñÿòü ÷åëîâåê. Äåâÿòü èç íèõ âñêîðå ïîãèáëè. Ñðåäè óáèòûõ áûëè äâà ìîèõ áëèçêèõ äðóãà: Âàíÿ Øóòàðåâ è Êîëÿ Ïåòðîâ. Âçâîä ëûæíèêîâ âîøåë íà êàêîé-òî õóòîð è ïîïàë â çàñàäó. Óöåëåë òîëüêî ìîé îäíîêàøíèê, áåëîðóñ Ìàòóñåâè÷. Îí áûë ðàíåí è ïðèòâîðèëñÿ ìåðòâûì, êîãäà ôèííû äîáèâàëè ðàíåíûõ. Îí âèäåë, êàê êàðåëó Ïåòðîâó – èìåííî ïîòîìó, ÷òî êàðåë – ôèííû îòðåçàëè óøè, ÿçûê, à ïîòîì âûðåçàëè øòûêîì íà ãðóäè êðàñíóþ çâåçäó…
Ìàëî êòî ýòî çíàåò, íî è â íà÷àëå Îòå÷åñòâåííîé Âîéíû ôèííû î÷åíü ÷àñòî íîæàìè äîáèâàëè íàøèõ ðàíåíûõ íà ïîëå áîÿ. Èìåííî íîæàìè…
Volunteers from our battalion were sent to Karelian Istmus as small groups. At first those were sent who has experience of army or navy service before. From our institute 10 men were given to the first group, 9 of them were killed soon. From those men two were my close friends: Vanya Shutarev and Kolya Petrov. Platoon of skiers came to the village and caught ambush. Only my schoolfellow Matusevich survived. He was wounded and simulated the death, when Finns killed wounded soldiers. He saw that Finns cut off ears and tongue of Karelian Petrov [because he was a Karelian], and cut the red star by bayonet on his body. Small amount of people know this, but in the beginning of Great Patriotic war Finns also very often killed our wounded men at the battlefields by knives. Exactly by knives!
P.S. Off-topic about puukko - from what I've read a lot of Finnish soldiers had it as common knife. Interesting, that shape of puukko was taken as base for some medical scalpels in XVIII-XIX c.c. IIRC in Russia bandit "street" knive is always called as finka [shape as puukko of Finnish origin]. One Karelian woodman presented me excellent puukko with sheath made from Karelian birch and covered with reindeer fur during our expedition to Barents Sea through Karelia (Onega Lake) and Murmask region in 2001. There was one story when our group [Germans, "diluted" with Finnish and Russian members] made afraid people in one small karelian village near Sortavala because of our look as foreign occupants or paratroopers-diversionists - field expeditionary uniform [and some guys wore their old uniform from army times even] with rolled sleeves, belts, knives, scientific equipment look like radiostations or flame-throwers, unshaven and angry/tired faces.........To finish the picture my colleague decided to ask the old Karelian woman in poor Russian with very strong German accent how to find the way to Sortavala.....and another colleague joked "and ask her does she know was the war finished already or not?". Such our stupid jokes caused some problems with native population in near future even but that was another story.

About pilots and other cases - should I post/translate or just give the links for someone own translation efforts? To say the truth, I don't like to waste my time on this very shameful subject [as former army physicial I don't like this also] and to be castigator of war crimes, let me remain as some kind of non-professional technical expert at AHF :|

Best regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 23 Jun 2007 17:54, edited 1 time in total.

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janner
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Post by janner » 23 Jun 2007 17:45

BP,

Many thanks for the translations - the detail is fascinating.

As to the facts – if we caught a Birmingham born Muslim fighting with the Taliban I wouldn't guarantee he'd be well treated in the heat of battle either. Not entering the “in which country is Karelia” discussion but clearly to a Finn those guys could well have been regarded as traitors in 1939. Now the maltreatment/mutilation described by this source can never be condoned but there are bad men in any army – to try and argue that all the Finns were angels would be a disservice to those who did maintain their humanity under severe distress. When he states "the beginning of the Great Patriotic War" does he mean the Winter War or the Finnish invasion of USSR? it would be very interesting if he were to regard the Soviet invasion as within the same spacial frame as later events.

On a separate note why do some posts seem to have a problem with soldiers killing with knives – they are an effective method of silently neutralising sentries etc. I believe that I must be missing a cultural nuance as a former infanteer reading it straight I’m left thinking: isn’t it what soldiers are supposed to do!

Regards,

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 23 Jun 2007 18:34

Hi, janner!
Many thanks for the translations - the detail is fascinating.
I have a very strange role here, with all my respect to Finnish army and Finns :(

In the Russian forum I mentioned above, a lot of "Finnish-supporters" mention such facts as several cases, done by several bastards, which were possible to find in every army, including Finnish, and describe NKVD efforts in Karelian front. "Russian-supporters" mention such facts as examples of common things, done by Finnish army during combats and during occupation of Karelia in 1941-1944. Where the truth is located, I don't know.

As for the beginning of Great Patriotic war - I think he meant 1941-1942. AFAIK Winter was is always described in Soviet and Russian literature as completelly differ war: Soviey-Finnish war of 1939-1940. Great Patriotic war started with the German invasion: 22.06.1941-09.05.1945. And the war with Japan in 1945 is described as separate war also.

About technical losses in Lemetti: from http://mechcorps.rkka.ru/files/before_4 ... 34_tbr.htm [data from Kolomiets and Aptekar]
23 ìàðòà 1940 ã. î ïîòåðÿõ ìàò÷àñòè äîêëàäûâàëè íà÷àëüíèêó ÃÀÁÒÓ êîìêîðó Ä.Ã.Ïàâëîâó ñ ìåñòà ãèáåëè áðèãàäû:
Òàíêè áðèãàäû íàõîäÿòüñÿ: Ñåâðíîå Ëåìåòòè - 25, Þæíîå Ëåìåòòè - 33, Óîìîñ - 9, Ìèòðî - 20, äîðîãà Ëàâîÿðâè-Óîìîñ - 19, ïîëóñòàíîê Êîíïèíàÿ - 2, äîðîãà Ñåâåðíîå-Þæíîå Ëåìåòòè - 9. Èòîãî 117.
Áðèãàäà èìååò: íà õîäó - 37, ïðè øòàáå 8-é àðìèè - 3, ÑÏÀÌ - 8. Èòîãî 48. Íå íàéäåíî 11 øòóê, ïðèíÿòû ìåðû ê ðîçûñêó. Âñå òàíêè ïðèâåäåíû ïðîòèâíèêîì â íåãîäíîñòü, ñíÿòî âîîðóæåíèå, èíñòðóìåíò, ðàöèè, áîåêîìïëåêò, è âñå óâåçåíî. Ñî âñåõ òàíêîâ àâòîãåíîì ñðåçàíû è óâåçåíû áàøíè ñ ïîäáàøåííûìè êîðîáêàìè".
Ïî îêîí÷àíèè âîåííûõ äåéñòâèé ñ ìàðòà 1940 ã. äèñëîöèðîâàëàñü â ã. Ëîäåéíîå ïîëå Ëåíèãðàäñêîé îáëàñòè.
Îñòàòêè áðèãàäû âìåñòå ñ òàíêîâûì ïîëêîì 25-é êä ëåòîì 1940 ã. îáðàùåíû íà ôîðìèðîâàíèå 25-ãî òàíêîâîãî ïîëêà 163-é ìîòîðèçîâàííîé äèâèçèè.
The report about technical losses from the place of the death of 34th light tank brigade, 23.03.1940. To the corps commander D.G. Pavlov [chief of mechanized department of RKKA].
Tanks are located: Lemetti North - 25, Lemetti South - 33, Uomos - 9, Mitro - 20, road Lavojärvi-Uomos - 19, Konpinaja - 2, road netween N-S Lemetti - 9. Total - 117 tanks.
Brigade had: 37 tanks in working order, under service of HQ of 8th army - 3, under repair - 8. Total - 48. 11 tanks were not found, assume measures to find them. All tanks [117 mentioned above] were damaged by Finns to unworking order, all armament was removed as well as radiostations, equipment and ammunition - all were taken away. All turrets were removed by autogenous and taken away also. Brigade located in Lodeinoe Pole of Leningrad region after the war came to end. The remainder of brigade together with tank regiment of 25th cavalry division were given to form 25th tank regiment of 163rd motorized division in summer 1940.
Best regards, BP

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Jun 2007 19:43

BIGpanzer wrote: A lot of cases when Finnish soldiers killed wounded men by knives on battlefields after combats are known. As well as the attacks of Finnish ski diversion groups against hospitals.
Still no detailled info, only folklore.


BIGpanzer wrote:As for known cases about massacres of hospital staff
Known cases?
You must mean known claims

BIGpanzer wrote: But lets try to ask somebody to find this research source to get the exact names/locations of those hospitals.
See above

BIGpanzer wrote:But you will wait the info as much as is needful
No, sourceless post are in danger to be deleted.
You can post the claims again when sourced.
BIGpanzer wrote: about Finns near Moscow and their cruelty
Mentioned earlier to have been untrue.

BIGpanzer wrote:But I would like to cite two veterans from Artem Driabkin [friend of Bair] cite http://www.iremember.ru
AFAIK journalist A. Driabkin found a lot of Russian WWII veterans in 2000-2007 and published several books of their memoires in style short question-detailed answer [as well as their memeires online. Great job I need to say].
http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?optio ... mitstart=1
[Memoires of artilleryman M.I. Lukinov]:
Interesting.
Even more interesting is his memory at the following cases, I have to say: (emphasis on mine):
I ran to look at the captured pillbox. And almost paid for my curiosity. When the pillbox fell, the neighboring pillboxes, still in Finnish hands, opened artillery fire on it. Several shells exploded, which fortunately did not cause any harm. Thick walls of reinforced concrete were covered by armor plates with powerful shock absorbing springs. That's why armor piercing shells were not penetrating the walls, but were deflected from them. Corpses of our soldiers were lying in front of the pillbox, some of whom were burned by the fire of the tank's flame-thrower and squashed by its tracks. Because the flame-thrower tank arrived later (And why couldn't it have come earlier?) and ran over the corpses. A hard and horrible sight.
«Cuckoos» — snipers in the trees — were bothering us a lot. During retreats, the Finns would put them in the trees with a submachine gun and a large quantity of ammo. Some of them shot and then ran away on skis, which they had left under the tree. Others shot until the end, until they were themselves knocked from the tree, and finished on the ground with hatred. Sometimes four «cuckoos» would deploy as if at the vertices of a forest square, and then anyone who entered that square was unavoidably killed. It was hard to knock them off, since they concentrated the fire of four submachine guns on one target in case of such attempts. They changed their position during the night, moving on to the next «square». Finns took the boots away from some snipers before putting them in the trees, so they wouldn't run away, and replaced their boots with a blanket. There was a case in our regiment when soldiers, having seen a «cuckoo» sitting in a tree, fired at her. She immediately threw down the gun and the blanket off her feet. The «cuckoo» turned out to be a young red-haired girl, white as death. They pitied her, and when they gave her some burned valenki, and she realized that she wouldn't be killed, she wept. Hearts melted and she was sent, untouched, to the rear under guard.
to which Bair explaned and wrote:The mention of female cuckoos and a pillbox with armored plates installed on springs so that shells would bounce off it is very interesting. This shows that even educated people in those times believed and continue to believe in those myths.
BIGpanzer wrote:About pilots and other cases - should I post/translate or just give the links for someone own translation efforts?
As you wish, somehow you need to back up your at the moment sourceless claim.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 24 Jun 2007 05:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Jun 2007 22:28

Tauno Räisänen writes at his book Kenraalimotti (General(s) encirclement = East-Lemetti encirclement)
about the events there.
The capturing of the encirclement (where AFAIK the abandoned Soviet wounded were, JT)
...the groups went to find out about the silence (as the majority of the Soviets had left, JT) When they reached the snow wall, the situation became clearer. The damned had fled!.
Forward!
At Makkara hill the dugouts bursted at high flames at more and more often the satchel charges of the HRR (Häme Cavalrt Regiment = a ski battalion, JT) "cleaning groups" exploded at heat of the battle.
The encirclement was still inhabited. An angry battle-cry "Hakkaa päälle"! (hit on, JT) was heard from the left
...the well built satchel charge carrier Eskelinen...run and threw his "sledgehammers" on to the silent tanks that blew to pieces. A needless destruction was to be prohibited.
But Eskelinen swore that now the "guests" have to surrender from their dugouts at first and only command, if they wish to save their lives.

...the paths might be mined , slowly we advanced from a tank to tank and dugout to dugout.
...now we got a contact to the HRR at Makkara hill. From there the Soviets has opened fire from their dugouts, which were mercilessly destroyed. POW's were taken, which were guided to the command post.

...the 3rd coy lined up at the main road. Some searched for the dugouts, at some of which an electric or lantern light could be seen. At those were sick and severly wounded, life of which was saved.
The Soviets however then themselves spoiled the case. a LMG Fire was opened from the Lättäjalka dugout group.
It didn't hit anyone, but was enough for a warning and irritation. A merciless "cleaning" took place at Lättäjalka.
...sleighs were loaded with satchel charges and they were pulled to the main road.
...Ville took some satchel charges with him and leaped from the side towards the firing port of the dugout
Surrender at once, dammit ! Ville shouted. The enemy didn't understand, and Ville didn't speak russian, so the charge was thrown in to the firing port of the dugout. The dugout blew to pieces, one enemy flew to air but one tried to escape, when not obeying the orders to surrender, he was shot.

...the "cleaning" of the area took couple of days and was ended by HRR and our 2nd coy.
Photographers, movie makers, military police and construction units came then.
...at one dugout a Soviet artillery LtCol had died of a wound at throat, his adjutant had shot himself.
Regards, Juha

Suomal. saartoasemat = Finnish positions
Suomal. partiolatu = Finnish ski partol trach
Hyökkäyssuunnat = directions of attack
Komentopaikkojaa = command posts
Venäl. asemat = Russian (Soviet, JT) positions
purkautumissuunnat = (Soviet, JT) escape routes
huoltotie = supply road
Miina = mine
aukio = open place
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Post by Hanski » 24 Jun 2007 09:08

The "cuckoo-stories" of the Winter War are a hallmark of fairytale-tellers, so wherever those fantasies appear, the source should be regarded questionable.
BIGpanzer wrote: The phenomenon of "Finnophobia" among some Soviet soldiers had also one reason - quite often stealth attempts of Finnish scout/diversion skiers to kill with knives guardmen or observes in forward trenches during the nighttime, that was usual practice during the war from every side but Finnish scouts were among the most skillful and stealthy".
Now, this makes perfect sense -- killing a guard silently with a knife instead of giving yourself up and alarming the enemy by firing a gunshot will make a big difference in what follows.

This discussion on the Lemetti encirclements has now diverted into the direction of war crimes, i.e. torturing captured enemy soldiers. While I acknowledge that individual psychopaths do exist in every army and civilian society, I still find it hard to believe that Finnish troops would have been somehow exceptionally cruel.

1. If there is such a thing as national character, would any foreigner testify Finns as being generally emotional, impulsive, carried away by their feelings, losing control? (When they are not drunk, that is...) As a Finn my view is biased, so there's no point in me commenting this.

2. In the Winter War, it was clear from the beginning that Finland badly needed any foreign support available and international good-will was crucial, so humanitarian aspects were observed in the treatment of POW's by Mannerheim's order. Generally, discipline among Finnish troops was good, and orders were followed in this respect as well. The level of basic education among Finnish troops was generally higher than among the Red Army: the soldiers were literate without exception and all had attended school. The International Red Cross also inspected the conditions of POW's in Finnish captivity, without much to remark -- in contrast to POW camps in Russia, never inspected by outsiders.

3. POW's were self-evidently a valuable source of intelligence, especially officers, aircrews, or men with special training or those with access to information from higher levels in the chain of command, so it would be simply utterly stupid to mistreat such prisoners if crucial information was to be obtained from them. Any soldier in the Finnish Army could understand this.

How about the Red Army then? I just finished reading a recent book of Finnish POWs in Soviet captivity, compiled of interrogation reports both in Soviet and Finnish archives. I have personally seen authentic photographs in the Helsinki War Archives about Finnish soldiers' bodies mutilated by their Soviet captors, POW's having been returned as living skeletons, and plenty of documents regarding those who were never returned. But this discussion should rather belong to the war crimes section.

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re

Post by Baltas » 24 Jun 2007 12:13

Hanski wrote:
killing a guard silently with a knife
How after that to slice bred with that knife :P

Regard Baltas

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t

Post by Baltas » 24 Jun 2007 12:53

Thank you Juha for translated paragraph It balsam for my soul :D

Maybe sometimes you can translate more?

Regard Baltas

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d

Post by Baltas » 25 Jun 2007 17:05

Hello Harri
somewhere between the true happenings and Soviet propaganda.
Are you know what is the best lie?
Propaganda specialits say:mix some truth with big amount lie and good appetite 8-)

Regard Baltas

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Re: d

Post by Harri » 25 Jun 2007 17:40

Baltas wrote:
Harri wrote:somewhere between the true happenings and Soviet propaganda.
Are you know what is the best lie?
Propaganda specialits say:mix some truth with big amount lie and good appetite
I'm aware of that. That's why all kinds of "fairytales" don't "sink in me".

It is thus best to believe in the story variant which is more likely true ot contains more likely less mistakes until proven incorrect. Soviet sources don't generally speaking belong to the most reliable ones in the world because there are usually numerous different versions published during the last 60 - 70 years and nothing was published without "proven officially correct".

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Post by Rodan Lewarx » 26 Jun 2007 08:08

Soviet sources don't generally speaking belong to the most reliable ones
German, US, finnish etc. sources can't be reliable too when they said about "not suitable" questions. On the other hand there are different sources: archive materials which initially was classified and not intended for public release are more reliable due to they are free from propaganda and books, articles etc. are not so reliable of course.

Regards

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Re: d

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 26 Jun 2007 10:35

Harri wrote:
Baltas wrote:
Harri wrote:somewhere between the true happenings and Soviet propaganda.
Are you know what is the best lie?
Propaganda specialits say:mix some truth with big amount lie and good appetite
I'm aware of that. That's why all kinds of "fairytales" don't "sink in me".

It is thus best to believe in the story variant which is more likely true ot contains more likely less mistakes until proven incorrect. Soviet sources don't generally speaking belong to the most reliable ones in the world because there are usually numerous different versions published during the last 60 - 70 years and nothing was published without "proven officially correct".
Harri, you saw though one Soviet archival material of military character? You worked in the Russian archives? You show weak knowledge of modern Russian sources.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Jun 2007 10:41

An off-topic post by Baltas was deleted

/Juha

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