Just post the source where you base your claims.
If you have any.
Not any but a lot well-known [for Russians, I began such searches recently] info. For sure [as I understood from your posts], such kind of info is not "popular" among Finnish historians. I never post "just opinions" as you, probably, know. At first I need to say that almost all modern sources about Winter war and war in Karelia in 1941-1944 on Russian [the list of the books about Winter war I bought in Karelia in the beg2000s, please see above] mentions the following [my generalized translation]: "Many veterans mention exceptional Finnish cruelty together with their discipline and bravery. A lot of cases when Finnish soldiers killed wounded men by knives on battlefields after combats are known. As well as the attacks of Finnish ski diversion groups against hospitals. Soviet soldiers considered that to be captured by Finns is much worser than to be captured by Germans. The phenomenon of "Finnophobia" among some Soviet soldiers had also one reason - quite often stealth attempts of Finnish scout/diversion skiers to kill with knives guardmen or observes in forward trenches during the nighttime, that was usual practice during the war from every side but Finnish scouts were among the most skillful and stealthy". So this is the general reason of such opinions in Russian literature and I guess that such facts could be increase also by Soviet propaganda during the war [here I agree with Harri to some degree].
As for known cases about massacres of hospital staff - see the cited source above [bolded, this reference is given in many sources]. I don't have this original source from the Karelian research centre as all books I have [about the history of the war, not about only war crimes] I already mentioned above. But lets try to ask somebody to find this research source to get the exact names/locations of those hospitals.
BP wrote: BIGpanzer íàïèñà:
During waiting you can
We don't have to wait for your sources.
Always quote sentences in full, correct ant honest way!
But you will wait the info as much as is needful otherwise try to find and translate them by yourself! It is interesting for me that I never saw "objective" replies on some Finnish posts concerning disclaimers the facts of strict punishments of Soviet soldiers in the case of rapes or thefts in Western Europe in 1944-1945, is this "double standard policy" or inattention?
Well, from http://artofwar.ru/r/razzhiwin_a_e/text_0060.shtml
I already mentioned here. The Soviet commission [from 54 corps?] report in Lemetti about 18th division
Èç îôèöèàëüíîãî çàêëþ÷åíèÿ êîìèññèè: "...Ïðè îñìîòðå óñòàíîâëåíî, ÷òî, íåñìîòðÿ íà íàëè÷èå ñìåðòåëüíûõ ðàíåíèé, çíà÷èòåëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ïîãèáøèõ íîñèò ñëåäû ïðèñòðåëèâàíèÿ â ãîëîâó è äîáèâàíèÿ ïðèêëàäàìè. Îäèí èç ïîãèáøèõ, îáóòûé â ôèíñêèå ñàïîãè ïåêñû, ïðèñòàâëåí ê äåðåâó ââåðõ íîãàìè. Æåíà èíñòðóêòîðà ïîëèòîòäåëà 18 ñä Ñìèðíîâà (ðàáîòàâøàÿ ïî ïàðòó÷åòó â ïîëèòîòäåëå) áûëà îáíàæåíà è ìåæäó íîã ó ïîëîâîãî îðãàíà âñòàâëåíà íàøà ðó÷íàÿ ãðàíàòà. Ñ áîëüøèíñòâà êîìàíäíîãî ñîñòàâà ñîäðàíû ïåòëèöû è íàðóêàâíûå çíàêè. Îðäåíà, èìåâøèåñÿ ó êîìàíäíîãî ñîñòàâà, ôèííàìè âûðûâàëèñü ñ ìàòåðèåé".
From the official conclusion "...During inspection of the place it was found that the significant part of dead men with initially fatal wounds had head shots and were smashed by rifle butts. One of the dead, who wore Finnish boots, was put to the tree upside down. The wife of political instructor of 18th division Smirnova [she worked in political department as clerk] was found naked with Soviet grenade between legs. The tabs and sleeve insignias of the majority of commanders were torn off. Orders of commanders were torn off by Finns together with fabric"....
Íà ìåñòå â ðàéîíå îáîðîíû ÊÏ îáíàðóæåíî 513 íàøèõ òðóïîâ,
êàê â îêîïàõ, òàê è âíå îêîïîâ.
Â ðàéîíå ïðîðûâà îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà êîëîííîé Íà÷àëüíèêà Øòàáà 18 ñä ïîëêîâíèêà Àëåêñååâà îáíàðóæåíî 201 òðóï, â îñíîâíîì â ðàéîíå îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà è ó ïðîâîëî÷íûõ çàãðàæäåíèé. Â ðàéîíå ïðîðûâà îáîðîíû ïðîòèâíèêà êîëîííîé Íà÷àëüíèêà Øòàáà 34 ëòáð ïîëêîâíèêà Ñìèðíîâà îáíàðóæåíî 150 òðóïîâ, â ãîñïèòàëüíûõ çåìëÿíêàõ îáíàðóæåíî 120 òðóïîâ, îñòàâøèõñÿ òÿæåëîðàíåíûõ. Ôèíñêèõ òðóïîâ íå îáíàðóæåíî, ò. ê. òàêîâûå ôèííàìè áûëè óáðàíû â ïåðèîä ñ 29.2.40 ïî 17.3.40 ã.
Èç îñòàâøèõñÿ áîåâûõ ìàøèí âîîðóæåíèé èçúÿòî è âûâåçåíî ôèííàìè: ñî âñåõ òðàíñïîðòíûõ ìàøèí ñíÿòû êîëåñà è â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ÷àñòè ìîòîðû. ×àñòü áîåâûõ è òðàíñïîðòíûõ ìàøèí ôèííàìè âûâåçåíà, î ÷åì ñâèäåòåëüñòâóþò ñëåäû âûâîäà ìàøèí. Âñÿ ìàòåðèàëüíàÿ ÷àñòü ïî ñâîåìó ñîñòîÿíèþ ÿâëÿåòñÿ áåçâîçâðàòíî ïîòåðÿííîé...
Near command post 513 our dead men were found, in trenches and outside them. In the place of breakthrough [column of 18th divisional HQ commander colonel Alekseev] 201 dead men were found. In the place of breakthrough [column of 24th LTB HQ commander colonel Smirnov] 150 dead men were found. In hospital dugouts 120 abandoned heavily wounded men were found. Finnish dead men were not found as Finns took them between 29.02.40 - 17.03.1940.
Finns took wheels and engines [from the significant part] of abandoned transport vehicles. The part of armored and transport vehicles were removed by Finns according to found tracks [I have the exact info from Aptekar's article - post this later, BP]. All equipment was fully lost..."
About cases of massacres of wounded men by Finns on battlefield [I found a lot of material in google as well as in Russian forums - a strong discussions with all possible proofs/disproofs from "Finnish-supporters" and "Russian-supporters" about Finns near Moscow and their cruelty]
http://www.trizna.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 574a1daf68
But I would like to cite two veterans from Artem Driabkin [friend of Bair] cite http://www.iremember.ru
AFAIK journalist A. Driabkin found a lot of Russian WWII veterans in 2000-2007 and published several books of their memoires in style short question-detailed answer [as well as their memeires online. Great job I need to say].
http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?optio ... mitstart=1
[Memoires of artilleryman M.I. Lukinov]:
Áûëî ìíîãî ñëó÷àåâ çâåðñòâ, êîãäà ôèííû óáèâàëè íîæàìè íàøèõ ðàíåíûõ, êîòîðûõ íå óñïåâàëè óáðàòü ñ ïîëÿ áîÿ. ß ñàì âèäåë â áèíîêëü, êàê íà ïîëÿíå, ê êîòîðîé íåëüçÿ áûëî ïîäîéòè áëèçêî èç-çà ñòðåëÿþùèõ «êóêóøåê», ëåæàëî íåñêîëüêî òåë íàøèõ ñîëäàò. È êîãäà îäèí èç íèõ äåëàë ïîïûòêó ïîäíÿòüñÿ, òî èç ëåñà ñ äåðåâüåâ ïî íåìó ðàçäàâàëèñü âûñòðåëû. Îäèí èç ðàíåíûõ ðàññêàçûâàë, ÷òî êîãäà ïîñëå áîÿ îí ëåæàë ðàíåíûé íà ñíåãó, ê íåìó ïîäúåõàë ôèíí è ñêàçàë ïî-ðóññêè: «Ëåæèøü, Èâàí? Íó, ëåæè, ëåæè». Åùå õîðîøî, ÷òî íå äîáèë, à âåäü òàêèõ ñëó÷àåâ áûëî ìíîãî.
http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?optio ... iew&id=408
"There were many cases of brutality when Finns killed by knives our wounded men, who were not evacuated from the battlefield. I saw in binocular by myself that several bodies of our soldiers lied on the opening place, where it was impossible to come closer because of snipers. And when soldier made attempt to stand up, it was fired from the trees. One of the wounded men told later, that when he lied on the battlefield after combat, Finn came to him and said on Russian: "Lie up, Ivan? Okh, lie up, lie up". Good, that Finn didn't kill him, there were many such cases"
[memoires of infantryman Frenklah I.Z.]
Âîò âû õîòèòå ñëûøàòü ñîëäàòñêóþ ïðàâäó, íî… Êîìó ýòî ñåé÷àñ íóæíî?
Äëÿ ìåíÿ ýòî ñåðüåçíàÿ äèëëåìà. Åñëè ãîâîðèòü î âîéíå âñþ ïðàâäó, ñ ïðåäåëüíîé ÷åñòíîñòüþ è èñêðåííîñòüþ, òî ñðàçó äåñÿòêè ãîëîñîâ «óðà-ïàòðèîòîâ» íà÷íóò îðàòü – î÷åðíÿåò, êëåâåùåò, êîùóíñòâóåò, íàñìåõàåòñÿ, çàëÿïûâàåò ãðÿçüþ, ãëóìèòñÿ íàä ïàìÿòüþ è ñâåòëûì îáðàçîì, è òàê äàëåå…
Åñëè ðàññêàçûâàòü â ñòèëå «à-ëÿ ïîëèòðóê èç ÃëàâÏÓÐà », ìîë — «ñòîéêî è ãåðîè÷åñêè, ìàëîé êðîâüþ, ìîãó÷èì óäàðîì, ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì óìíûõ è ïîäãîòîâëåííûõ êîìàíäèðîâ…» — òî ìåíÿ îò òàêèõ ëèöåìåðíûõ è ôàëüøèâûõ ðå÷åé è îò ÷âàíëèâîãî ñîâåòñêîãî îôèçèîçà âñåãäà òîøíèëî…
Âåäü âàøå èíòåðâüþ áóäóò ÷èòàòü ëþäè, âîéíû íå âèäåâøèå è íåçíàêîìûå ñ ðåàëèÿìè òîãî âðåìåíè, è âîîáùå íåçíàþùèå ïîäëèííóþ öåíó âîéíû. ß íå õî÷ó, ÷òîáû êòî-òî, íå èìåþùèé ìàëåéøåãî ïîíÿòèÿ êàêîé íà ñàìîì äåëå áûëà âîéíà, çàÿâèë, ÷òî ÿ ðàññêàçûâàþ «áàéêè» èëè èçëèøíå òðàãåäèçèðóþ ïðîøëîå. Áûëè êîíå÷íî ãåðîè, íî áûëè è òîëïû ïàíèêåðîâ, «äðàïàëüùèêîâ».
Áûëî ìàññîâîå, íè÷åì íå îïðàâäàííîå, áåññìûñëåííîå ñàìîïîæåðòâîâàíèå, ïî âîëå íàøèõ äåáèëüíûõ êîìàíäàðìîâ. Âîò âû ñ ìîèì ñîñåäîì ïî óëèöå, áûâøèì « øòðàôíèêîì» Åôèìîì Ãîëüáðàéõîì îïóáëèêîâàëè èíòåðâüþ. Íà äíÿõ ïîñìîòðåë â Èíòåðíåòå îáñóæäåíèÿ ïðî÷èòàííîãî òåêñòà. È ìåíÿ âçáåñèëî ñëåäóþùåå. Ìîëîäûå ëþäè îáâèíÿþò âåòåðàíà â òîì, ÷òî îí ÷åñòíî ðàññêàçàë, ÷òî â ñåðåäèíå îêòÿáðÿ ñîðîê ïåðâîãî â Ìîñêâå áûëà äèêàÿ ïàíèêà è áûëî íåìàëî òàêèõ, ñ ïîçâîëåíèÿ ñêàçàòü, «ãðàæäàí», êîòîðûå ñî ñïîêîéíîé äóøîé æäàëè íåìöåâ. Ìîë, êàê îí ñìååò, è ò. ä.
À îòêóäà ýòè ìîëîäûå ëþäè ìîãóò çíàòü, ÷òî òàì òâîðèëîñü íà ñàìîì äåëå?
You want to know the soldier truth about the war. But...does anybody need it today?
This is a serious problem for me. If to tell about the war all truth, with the most possible honesty and openness - immediately tens voices of "Hurrah-patriotes" began to cry that I say in "black words", slander, blaspheme, laugh, scoff at patriotism etc.
If to tell in the style of "commissars" - "bravely and heroically, with small losses, powerful strength, under the command of clever and experienced commanders..." - I was always puked from such false speeches and from snobbish Soviet official propaganda.
Your interview will be read by men who don't see the war and don't know the realities of the war, they don't know the real cost of the war. And I don't want that somebody who knows completelly nothing about what kind of the real war was, claims that I tell "rumors" or describe only tragedies of the past.
There were real heroes indeed but there were crowds of alarmists also.....There were massive senseless self-abnegation because of command of our moron high rank commanders.
For example, you published the interview with my neughbour, ex-member of penal battalion Efim Golbreich, and I saw the opinions about that interview in Internet. And I was very angry that youth accused him that he told honestly what happened in Moscow in October 1941 [when was a great panics, plunder of shops and there were a lot of men who waited Germans indeed]. And youth cried: "How the veteran can say such facts?!" But I am asking these youth: "Do you know what happened in Moscow in reality?"...
I cited this fragment especially to illustrate the honesty of veteran.
His memoires about Finns:
Íà Êàðåëüñêèé ïåðåøååê äîáðîâîëüöåâ èç íàøåãî áàòàëüîíà îòïðàâëÿëè íåáîëüøèìè ãðóïïàìè. Ñíà÷àëà íàïðàâèëè òåõ, êòî èìåë îïûò ñðî÷íîé ñëóæáû â àðìèè è íà ôëîòå. Èç íàøåãî èíñòèòóòà â ïåðâóþ ãðóïïó ïîïàëî äåñÿòü ÷åëîâåê. Äåâÿòü èç íèõ âñêîðå ïîãèáëè. Ñðåäè óáèòûõ áûëè äâà ìîèõ áëèçêèõ äðóãà: Âàíÿ Øóòàðåâ è Êîëÿ Ïåòðîâ. Âçâîä ëûæíèêîâ âîøåë íà êàêîé-òî õóòîð è ïîïàë â çàñàäó. Óöåëåë òîëüêî ìîé îäíîêàøíèê, áåëîðóñ Ìàòóñåâè÷. Îí áûë ðàíåí è ïðèòâîðèëñÿ ìåðòâûì, êîãäà ôèííû äîáèâàëè ðàíåíûõ. Îí âèäåë, êàê êàðåëó Ïåòðîâó – èìåííî ïîòîìó, ÷òî êàðåë – ôèííû îòðåçàëè óøè, ÿçûê, à ïîòîì âûðåçàëè øòûêîì íà ãðóäè êðàñíóþ çâåçäó…
Ìàëî êòî ýòî çíàåò, íî è â íà÷àëå Îòå÷åñòâåííîé Âîéíû ôèííû î÷åíü ÷àñòî íîæàìè äîáèâàëè íàøèõ ðàíåíûõ íà ïîëå áîÿ. Èìåííî íîæàìè…
Volunteers from our battalion were sent to Karelian Istmus as small groups. At first those were sent who has experience of army or navy service before. From our institute 10 men were given to the first group, 9 of them were killed soon. From those men two were my close friends: Vanya Shutarev and Kolya Petrov. Platoon of skiers came to the village and caught ambush. Only my schoolfellow Matusevich survived. He was wounded and simulated the death, when Finns killed wounded soldiers. He saw that Finns cut off ears and tongue of Karelian Petrov [because he was a Karelian], and cut the red star by bayonet on his body. Small amount of people know this, but in the beginning of Great Patriotic war Finns also very often killed our wounded men at the battlefields by knives. Exactly by knives!
P.S. Off-topic about puukko - from what I've read a lot of Finnish soldiers had it as common knife. Interesting, that shape of puukko was taken as base for some medical scalpels in XVIII-XIX c.c. IIRC in Russia bandit "street" knive is always called as finka [shape as puukko of Finnish origin]. One Karelian woodman presented me excellent puukko with sheath made from Karelian birch and covered with reindeer fur during our expedition to Barents Sea through Karelia (Onega Lake) and Murmask region in 2001. There was one story when our group [Germans, "diluted" with Finnish and Russian members] made afraid people in one small karelian village near Sortavala because of our look as foreign occupants or paratroopers-diversionists - field expeditionary uniform [and some guys wore their old uniform from army times even] with rolled sleeves, belts, knives, scientific equipment look like radiostations or flame-throwers, unshaven and angry/tired faces.........To finish the picture my colleague decided to ask the old Karelian woman in poor Russian with very strong German accent how to find the way to Sortavala.....and another colleague joked "and ask her does she know was the war finished already or not?". Such our stupid jokes caused some problems with native population in near future even but that was another story.
About pilots and other cases - should I post/translate or just give the links for someone own translation efforts? To say the truth, I don't like to waste my time on this very shameful subject [as former army physicial I don't like this also] and to be castigator of war crimes, let me remain as some kind of non-professional technical expert at AHF
Best regards, BP