Let's Build: The Heer/Waffen-SS 1943-44

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 08 Jul 2007 12:40

Thanks for the input!

On a point of clarification, this would strictly spekaing not be the Heer, but just the Feldheer (ie, it does not include the Ersatzheer).

cheers

Michate
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Post by Michate » 09 Jul 2007 08:02

For November, 1, 1943 number Lüftwaffe has reached the greatest size for all war and has made 2,994,000, including:
- officers and official: - 119,000
- sub-officers and private: - 1,970,000
- auxiliary structure: - 430,000
IIRC, this number also includes civil air warning services in the German cities and engineers in the aircraft industry.

The tables breaking down Wehrmacht strength are very interesting, and seem to be missing from the records held in BA-MA.
Part of this breakdown has been published in the 1980s in the former GDR's official history, "Deutschland im 2. Weltkrieg", Vol. 4, also referring to an archive of the the Soviet army general staff's historical section.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 09 Jul 2007 19:47

Michate wrote:
For November, 1, 1943 number Lüftwaffe has reached the greatest size for all war and has made 2,994,000, including:
- officers and official: - 119,000
- sub-officers and private: - 1,970,000
- auxiliary structure: - 430,000
IIRC, this number also includes civil air warning services in the German cities and [/b]engineers[/b] in the aircraft industry.
There is a document c such heading:
The chief of an army headquarters … … … … … …The Führer's HQ
Land forces … … … … … … … … … … … … … 15/8/1943
At the chief of an army headquarters … … … … … 3 copies
General headquarters … … … … … … … … ….. Copy ¹ 2
Armed forces
(I) ¹ 52/43
… … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Top secret
… … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Only for command
… … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … To transfer only
… … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … through the officer

Theses to the report on a condition of human reserves

…..
In addition to this the report there are three more appendices.
The appendix 1 «A. The data on change of a number of personnel of a working land forces from a beginning of war against Soviet Union»
The appendix 2 «B. The data on change of number of personnel Lüftwaffe from a beginning of war against the Soviet union»
The appendix 3 «C. The data on change of number of personnel Krigsmarine from a beginning of war against the Soviet Union»

From the text of the appendix 2 it is visible, that these engineers actually were military men Lüftwaffe (common number from 50 up to 60 thousand person), they have been temporarily directed for work on the enterprises of the aviation industry.
In the autumn 1943 it was supposed to replace with their Italian engineers.

Then, from documents it is visible, that the specified number of parts of a Wermacht does not take into account women and foreigners. Thus, the number of Germans of men is specified in tables.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 09 Jul 2007 20:12

In this document (the signed known columns Staufenberg) the structure of army of a reserve (ErsatzHeer) is opened

NUMERICAL STRUCTURE OF ARMY OF THE RESERVE
FOR FEBRUARY, 11, 1944

Copy………………………………Top secret
From the urgent telegram………….Only for command
……………………………………..11/2/1944.

To the chief of an army headquarters
General headquarters
Armed forces

The basis: the Führer's order , general headquarters
Armed forces (an army headquarters of an operative management),
An organizational department, # 007 436/43. Top secret.
Only for command, from 27/11/43)

In the performance of the order of the Führer I report on cash numerical structure of army of a reserve:

1) An aggregate number … … … … … … … … … … ….. … … … 2,905,652 person
Including:
89,735 officers
40,797 officials
405,775 corporals (under - officers)
2,159,602 private soldiers
3,640 sonderführers
52,698 serving males
103,405 working males

2) All staff is broken on the following age groups and categories of the validity to military service:

a) Persons of 1914 of a birth and are younger … … … … … … … … … 1,076,568 person.
Including:
--- Suitable for front service in a wartime … …. … …… …577,428 person.
--- Suitable for garrison service in working Army … … … 48,858 »
--- Suitable for garrison service in Germany … …..… … 408,433 »
--- Suitable for not front service … … … … … … … ….. 41,489 »

b) Persons of 1906-1913 of a birth … …… … … … … … … … … … …… 68,7276 person.
Including:
--- Suitable for front service in a wartime … ….… … … …248,843 person.
--- Suitable for garrison service in working Army … … … 42,797 »
--- Suitable for garrison service in Germany … ….. … … 350,912 »
--- Suitable for not front service … … … … … … … …. 44,724 »

c) Persons of 1987-1905 of a birth … … … … … … … … … … … …… …459,656 person.
Including:
--- Suitable for front service in a wartime … …. … … 163,088 person.
--- Suitable for garrison service in working Army … … 50,159 »
--- Suitable for garrison service in Germany … …..… … 212,939 »
--- Suitable for not front service … … … … … … … … .33,470 »

d) Persons of 1986 of a birth also are more senior … … … … … … … … … 144,052 person.
Including:
--- Suitable for front service in a wartime … …. … …....27,293 person.
--- Suitable for garrison service in working Army … … 15,395 »
--- Suitable for garrison service in Germany … … … … 59,592 »
--- Suitable for not front service … … … … … … … … 41,772 »

e) Not referred to definite age group or a category
of the validity (dismissed, unusable to the front service,
yet not examined, sick and wounded without the medical conclusion)… … ….. 538,100 person.

3) On a sort of use all staff of army of the reserve, specified in item 1, is distributed as follows:

à) In military - territorial bodies and service instances,
in command bodies and bodies of acquisition … … … … … … … … … … … … … 342,062 person.

b) In Landwehrs and garrison subdivisions
in territory of Germany … … … … … … … … … … … … … 306,701 »

c) At military schools, teaching departments and
Stock subdivisions (only a regular personnel) …… …… … … …323,251 »

d) In a reserve, including recovering … … … … ….. … …… …960,244 »
Including:
--- 1) suitable for front service in military
Time and suitable for garrison service in
field army, recruits on preparation
or completed training… …… … … … … … … … … … … 541 thousand person.
--- 2) Recovering … … … … … … … … … … … .182 thousand »
--- 3) Patients in the hospitals, temporarily suitable
to garrison service in Germany, etc.… … … … … .129 thousand »

--- 4) Candidates in officers valid
Services and a stock, candidates in corporals,
Staff on rates,
Under arrest, in prisons and so on … … … … … … … … 88 thousand »

--- 5) The recruits intended to sending
in a division of 21-st wave … … … … … … … … … … … 20 thousand »

e) Recovering and taking place in
Subdivisions for recovering … … … … … ….… …… …… …… … 258,401 »

f) Wounded and patients in hospitals … … … … … … … ….… … 628,211 »

g) The medic-sanitary personnel in hospitals … … ….… …… … 85,882 »

4) From a total sum it is necessary to subtract:
a) about 70 thousand soldiers of army of a reserve from among wounded and the patients who are taking place in hospitals who will consist on the account in lists of reserve and educational subdivisions and thus are included in reports by simultaneously reserve both educational subdivisions and hospitals.
b) about 37 thousand the soldiers becoming invalids and received mutilation at execution of the duties which pass the commission by definition of a degree of the validity to military service, 2/3 from them are transferred already to the reserve with obligatory serving a labour duty.

5) Specification of the number resulted in item 3 of officers , officials, corporals (under-officers), ordinary, sonderführers, employees and workers of a male will be presented later as the reports which have arrived from managements of corps districts, appeared incomplete and should be demanded again.

The chief of arms of a land forces and commanding armies of a reserve
(combined-arms department IIa),
¹ 145/44 from 10.2.1944.

Top secret
Only for command.
Columns Staufenberg.
Source: Voenno-Istorichesky Zhurnal # 4 p/ 93-94

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Post by Yuri » 10 Jul 2007 11:48

Change of an aggregate number of staff working land forces for the period from July, 1, till February, 1, 1944.
(Including Military Districts, LW-Field Divisions and Waffen-SS)
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Post by Yuri » 10 Jul 2007 18:54

Qvist wrote:Hi Panzergrenadier

Thanks for the information - but is Konievs autobiography a satisafactory source for German deployments? Even the (classified) General Staff study on Korsun apparently makes some serious errors when it comes to this. See this critique:

http://www.militaryhistory.nu/critiques/critiques.html
Hm … «This critique» from its part be not capable to sustain in the slightest degree the serious analysis. Weak places « this critique » are visible not to an aided eye.
Mythical break of 40 thousand from of the Korsun-Shevchenko's boiler in February, 1944 from the same lines, as mythical struggle XLVIII Panzer Corps with ocean of hordes Russian on the river Chir in December, 1942.

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Post by Qvist » 11 Jul 2007 02:51

The number of troops who escaped from the pocket are firmly documented, as are the several obvious inaccuracies in the General Staff Study.

cheers

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Post by Yuri » 11 Jul 2007 19:28

Distribution of forces of a working land forces on battlefields
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Post by Yuri » 11 Jul 2007 22:01

Combined the schedule the distributions of working overland forces
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Michate
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Post by Michate » 12 Jul 2007 07:22

Nice overviews.
Actually in the German archives (BA-MA) there is data available which provides the actual (rather than planned) strength data for the theaters until July 1944 as well as a breakdown between Feldheer and Waffen-SS/Luftwaffe-Feldverbaende.

BTW, how do you get a number of 357,000 in Finland and WB Ostland / Ukraine for 1 December 1943?
I do have data for 1 November 1943, which shows a total of 103,000 men in WB Ostland and Ukraine (in 1944 this numbers dropped to roughly 60-70,000) and 176,000 in Finland, resulting in a somewhat lower figure of 278,000.

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Post by Yuri » 12 Jul 2007 20:07

Michate wrote:Nice overviews.

BTW, how do you get a number of 357,000 in Finland and WB Ostland / Ukraine for 1 December 1943?
I do have data for 1 November 1943, which shows a total of 103,000 men in WB Ostland and Ukraine (in 1944 this numbers dropped to roughly 60-70,000) and 176,000 in Finland, resulting in a somewhat lower figure of 278,000.
Data on allies, to military districts «Ukraine» and «Baltic» and 20-th (mountain) army are determined by referring to other documents, include, those which are not present at given number «Military - historical magazine».
I whenever possible shall try to look these documents.

Here initial (basis) a situation on the end of 1942 / the beginning of 1943.
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Post by Yuri » 12 Jul 2007 20:41

Michate wrote:Nice overviews.
Actually in the German archives (BA-MA) there is data available which provides the actual (rather than planned) strength data for the theaters until July 1944 as well as a breakdown between Feldheer and Waffen-SS/Luftwaffe-Feldverbaende.
In TsAMO as are available a quite good collection of trophy documents in which it is full enough opened structure and number of Wehrnacht’s parts during the various periods, including on 1944 and 1945.

For example, as the situation with number the OKH’s force (without 20-th army) looks by the beginning of the various periods of war

The period / the Aggregate number of a German land forces / %%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the beginning of war with Soviet Union … … … … … … … … … … ….. 3,300 thousand ….. 100 %
To the beginning of counterattack under Stalingrad (November 1942) … ......3,405 » … …. … .103 %
To the beginning of counterattack near Kursk (July 1943) … … … … ..........3,495 » … …. … .106 %
By January 1944 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …2,885 » … …. … .87 %
To the beginning of the summer - autumn campaign of 1944 (Jun 22,1944) . .2,700 » … …. … .82 %
To the beginning of finishing campaign in Europe in 1945 … … … … ….. ...2,005 » … …. … .61 %

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Post by Qvist » 12 Jul 2007 23:10

To the beginning of counterattack under Stalingrad (November 1942) … ......3,405 » … …. … .103 %
To the beginning of counterattack near Kursk (July 1943) … … … … ..........3,495 » … …. … .106 %
By January 1944 … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … …2,885 » … …. … .87 %
To the beginning of the summer - autumn campaign of 1944 (Jun 22,1944) . .2,700 » … …. … .82 %
Any more details on these? These figures are all considerably higher than any I've seen on these points in time - and I have seen a good few.

cheers

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Post by Michate » 13 Jul 2007 07:37

I would be very much interested to see breakdowns of these figures and what is included into them, or even better the original documents.

I can only agree to Qvist that more or less ALL strength documents available in the archives give somewhat lower strength numbers (except for 22 June 1941, the number of 3,300,000 however includes 26 divisions earmarked for, but yet not available, in the East).

E. g.:

1 November 1942: 3,100,000
1 December 1942: 3,037,000
1. December 1943: 2,850,000

Data include to all ground forces in the Eastern theater with Finland and the occupied territories up to the German frontier, and also Waffen-SS and Luftwaffe ground forces.

On 1 November 1942 the German field army in total had an Iststaerke of 4,207,000 men.

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Post by Yuri » 15 Jul 2007 14:55

Michate wrote: I can only agree to Qvist that more or less ALL strength documents available in the archives give somewhat lower strength numbers (except for 22 June 1941, the number of 3,300,000 however includes 26 divisions earmarked for, but yet not available, in the East).

E. g.:

1 November 1942: 3,100,000
1 December 1942: 3,037,000
1. December 1943: 2,850,000

Data include to all ground forces in the Eastern theater with Finland and the occupied territories up to the German frontier, and also Waffen-SS and Luftwaffe ground forces.

On 1 November 1942 the German field army in total had an Iststaerke of 4,207,000 men.
You can show your data for July, 1, 1943 for actual strength for OKH (the general, for the East and for Finland), for the airfield divisions Lüftwaffe and for the Waffen-SS divisions?
As for this date it is possible to see a basis from documents available already here.

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