11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

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Kelvin
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11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Kelvin » 20 Apr 2008 15:24

Hi anyone have panzer and SPW strength of 11th SS Nordland Panzergrenadier Division on 01st December 1944 ? Operational and repair figures ? This elite division always halted Russian thrust in the North.

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RFPB
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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by RFPB » 28 Apr 2008 04:29

Kelvin,

I hope this helps.

Personnel Strengths for 20 September 1944 for 11.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Nordland"

328 officers/1,818 non-commissioned officers/8,334 enlisted personnel: 10,889 total personnel (with an additional 284 HiWis)

That is September, but I read reports of Nordland with roughly 9,000 in December of 1944.

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 28 Apr 2008 19:07

I don't believe Nordland had any Panzers on December 1, 1944. I think (but I'm not 100% certain) that both SS-Panzer Abteilung 11 HvS and SS-Stug. Abt. 11 were evacuated by sea from Parnu/Pernau during the September 1944 retreat from Estonia, and went straight to Germany to rebuild. They then didn't return to combat until they were sent to the Stargard area of Pomerania in early February 1945, a few days before the main body of Nordland arrived there by sea from Kurland.

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Martin Block » 28 Apr 2008 20:13

Marc,

as far as I can tell the SS-Pz.Abt. 11 H.v.S. was sent to Germany for refit less one company. While I do not have the 'Zustandsbericht' for 1.12.1944 (like most others from late 1944 and 1945 it doesn't seem to have survived the war) I have found the the one for 1.1.1945 in the BA-MA.
Where the SS-Pz.Abt. 11 should be it shows just one Pz.Kp. with 8 Stu.Gesch., 2 Pz. V and 1 Bergepz. T-34. Next to the tactical symbol it is remarked: "Pz.Abt. ohne 1 Kp. zur Neuaufstellung im Heimatkriegsgebiet dem SS-F.H.A. unterstellt."

So apparently SS-Pz.Abt. 11 did ship some Panthers and StuG III out of Courland and they do again appear in the Pz.Lage compilation prepared by the Gen.Qu. dated 15.1.1945 before either SS-Pz.Abt. 11 (less one coy) or SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 11 had returned to the division.

Regards,

Martin Block

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 30 Apr 2008 07:25

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that, Martin!

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Kelvin » 03 May 2008 17:34

Hi, but after refitting, 11th SS had SPW or not, I know before this, she had a large number of SPW on hand, about 94 operational on June 01 1944

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 04 May 2008 04:03

I don't know the numbers, but SS-PAA 11 definitely had at least a few SPW in action up to the last days of the war. Swedish volunteer Erik Wallin mentions this in his Twilight of the Gods memoir, and there's that famous photo of the knocked out Nordland SPW in Berlin at the end of the war. You can see another two SPW of Nordland in the top photo on page 254 of Vuksic's SS Armor book. The photo is captioned as having been taken in Hungary, but it was shot by SS-PK Mann Werner Stille, who was with the III.(germ.) SS-Panzerkorps in Kurland in late 1944, and then in Pomerania in the spring of 1945 (the photo is credited to Stille, with a date of March 1945). I don't believe Nederland had any SPW in 1945, though I'm uncertain of this, and I assume these two vehicles in the photo are from SS-PAA 11.

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 08 May 2008 16:41

On another forum we have been debating this pic which was posted on ebay

Image

Could HVS be Herman von Salza - did 11SS have any Pz-III on 1/9/44?

Cheers

Bob

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 May 2008 19:07

No, its HUS, Heeres-Unteroffiziersschule in my opinion :wink:

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Martin Block » 08 May 2008 22:22

Bob,

I fully agree with Jan-Hendrik. It's not 3./H.v.S. but 3./Heeres-Unteroffiziers-Schule für Pz.Tr. (Panzerschützen) which was located in Eisenach west of Erfurt, Wehrkreis IX.

Martin Block

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 09 May 2008 10:23

Thanks Gents :)

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Kelvin » 10 May 2008 03:54

11th SS was considered as one of elite divison in German Waffen SS ?

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 10 May 2008 05:57

It was sort of a "lower elite" and never had the same priority for weapons and personnel that the seven Panzer Divisionen had. But it was still far ahead of the non-armored units, and the anti-partisan formations. So it was never treated as well as the Leibstandarte in regards to keeping it up to strength and providing SPW and similar luxuries, but it still received such things in a much better fashion that did, say, the Handschar Division, or the 31. SS-Freiwilligen Division.

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Kelvin » 10 May 2008 13:01

Hi Marc, if say, HG, GD and seven Waffen SS Panzer divisions were higher elite armored units in German army and other Panzer divisions and panzergrenadier division were lower elite unit, do you think so ? But some Panzer divisons in the late stage of war, never supplied adequately , e.g 1st Panzer divsion (first panzer unit in Heer), 13th, 14th, 23rd and 24th Panzer division were the same case. But 4th and 5th Panzer divsions alway obtained enough supply.

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 10 May 2008 13:46

Hi Marc, if say, HG, GD and seven Waffen SS Panzer divisions were higher elite armored units in German army and other Panzer divisions and panzergrenadier division were lower elite unit, do you think so
What a nonsense... :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

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