Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

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Trilisser
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Trilisser » 31 May 2008 02:20

Apparently the truth is too painful to some followers of Lord Vansittart...

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Ranke
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Ranke » 12 Jun 2008 06:12

It was clear from his interview on CNN that Buchanan hasn't a clue. It is a shame that such drivel masquerading as history gets published and gets so much publicity when cutting edge research by serious writers barely gets read. IMO the title of this thread should read: "Buchanan and 'the Unnecessary Book."

Trilisser
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Trilisser » 12 Jun 2008 15:49

Has Lord Vansittart risen from the dead?

bobbyhill
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Re: New book blames WWII on Britain

Postby bobbyhill » 12 Jun 2008 16:08

Dan W. wrote:................

To prove his analysis is utterly ridiculous the Holocaust was already in full swing before the start of WWII, so the saving of Jewry by avoiding WWII makes no sense to me.
...........


The large scale killing of Jews did NOT occur until AFTER WW2 commenced.

Buchanan's point makes a lot of sense and he's courageous enough to say it.
Last edited by bobbyhill on 12 Jun 2008 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Sid Guttridge » 12 Jun 2008 16:36

Hi Bobbyhill,

Actually deportation aned expulsion was underway well before WWII, which is why a considerable proportion of German Jews survived. Other aspects related to the later so-called "Holocaust" - pogroms (Kristalnacht), boycotts, expropriation without compensation, concentration camps and the extermination of tens of thousands of mentally and physically disabled Germans - were also underway within Germany before WWII.

Cheers,

Sid.

bobbyhill
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby bobbyhill » 12 Jun 2008 16:44

What I meant to say was mass killings of the Jewish people,the so-called Holocaust, began after the war began. The camps in Poland weren't built until after the war began.

And like another poster said, Wannsee Conference was not until 1942, after the war began in 1939.

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Patzinak
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Patzinak » 12 Jun 2008 16:57

bobbyhill wrote:[…] Buchanan's point makes a lot of sense and he's courageous enough to say it.

(1) Courage is not enough to transform a politician into a historian -- knowledge also plays a small part in the business.

(2) If it's "courage" to say what you can find in any serious book on the Holocaust, then Buchanan deserves a medal. Wait a minute… shouldn't the medal go to the guys who wrote the books?

bobbyhill wrote:[…] the so-called Holocaust, began after the war began. […]

So-called?!

--Patzinak

ThomasG
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby ThomasG » 12 Jun 2008 21:24

Jefferson wrote:Hi Bobbyhill,

Actually deportation aned expulsion was underway well before WWII, which is why a considerable proportion of German Jews survived. Other aspects related to the later so-called "Holocaust" - pogroms (Kristalnacht), boycotts, expropriation without compensation, concentration camps and the extermination of tens of thousands of mentally and physically disabled Germans - were also underway within Germany before WWII.

No, the start of the T4 program was linked to the war.

"Hitler had always been in favour of killing those whom he judged to be "unworthy of life." Both his physician, Dr Karl Brandt, and the head of the Reich Chancellery, Hans Lammers, testified after the war that Hitler had told them in 1933, at the time the sterilisation law was passed, that he favoured killing the incurably ill, but recognised that public opinion would not accept this. In 1935 he told the Reich Doctors' Leader, Dr Gerhard Wagner, that the question could not be taken up in peacetime: "such a problem could be more smoothly and easily carried out in war," he said. He intended, he wrote, "in the event of a war radically to solve the problem of the mental asylums."

The outbreak of war thus opened up for Hitler the possibility of carrying out a policy he had long favoured."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-4_Euthanasia_Program

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Sid Guttridge » 13 Jun 2008 11:24

Hi ThomasG,

Even if one accepts that, then war was only the cover for something already long planned in Nazi Germany in peacetime.

It also leaves out the long legislative build up to disenfrachise the same groups who later ended up being massacred in the so-called "Holocaust", the pogroms (Kristalnacht), boycotts, the mass sterilisation campaigns, expropriation without compensation, concentration camps, etc., etc.

The so-called "Holocaust" (a later, contrived name I don't much favour) was a continuum. It had no specific starting date. The Wannsee Conference only put onto an industrial footing a mass slaughter that was already under way. The outbreak of war simply extended the reach and cover of a campaign that was already evident inside pre-war Germany.

On the evidence available in August 1939 the immensity and monstrousness of the so-called "Holocaust" was probably unpredicatble, so far off the scale of recent European precedent was it. However, 20/20 hindsight make clear that its roots lay earlier.

Cheers,

Sid.

J. Duncan
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby J. Duncan » 07 Aug 2008 21:44

The Polish Question is what started the war (yes, Hitler wanted Dazig, the Polish Corridor, claimed germans were being persecuted by Poles etc..) but at the end of the day you have 25 million european dead and Poland becomes a Stalinist satellite with all of eastern europe under the soviet octopus.
What was really gained when judged by how the whole conflagration began? What a small affair Poland was when compared to that? And why was it that Britain didn't declare war on Stalin (who had invaded western Poland literally dividing the "spoils" with Hitler and commiting just as bad atrocities - Katyn anyone?)? The hypocrisy of the "Allies" is sickening when you look at the whole canvass of the picture. The truth is that the jewish lobby in Britain wanted hitler destroyed no matter what the cost. One must look deeper and see who was pushing Churchill to act as he did. There was no questioning that to the Jews Adolf Hitler was world enemy number one (for obvious reasons)! That's why when america entered the war, the Allies all agreed to take out Hitler first. In Hitler's mind, it was the jews and their puppets who worked for jewish interests who were behind the effort to destroy him...as the war turned against him, he enacts a teribble revenge against the jews who are within his grasp. makes sense to me as an expalnation. no question the jews represent a powerful lobby even today (Saddam was world enemy no. 1 a few years ago...notice how a maniac like Kim il Sung is largely left alone?) this is not anti-semitism, just an observation from reading the new york times, the Forward, etc so i hope nobody will accuse me of this. Pat's on the right track but he is clouded in his conclusions.

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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby J. Duncan » 07 Aug 2008 21:46

clarification: Stalin invaded eastern Poland - I was confused.

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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby ThomasG » 07 Aug 2008 22:04

A very positive review by the Future of Freedom Foundation.

Pat Buchanan’s new book Churchill, Hitler, and “The Unnecessary War” does an excellent job of demolishing the myths surrounding World War II, commonly called “the good war” in American public school textbooks. Here are some of the major points Buchanan makes in the book:

1. World War II was actually a continuation of World War I, a war that involved a total waste of American life, which is why U.S. officials, not surprisingly, don’t like to talk about it. Despite the fact that America’s Founding Fathers had warned against U.S. involvement in Europe’s endless wars, President Wilson intervened in the war with two objectives: to make the world safe for democracy and to end all future wars.

After the war was over, it increasingly became clear to the American people that neither of these goals had been achieved, to say the least. In fact, America’s intervention, which brought about the total defeat of Germany, produced the brutal and vengeful Treaty of Versailles, which then prepared the ground for Adolf Hitler and World War II. If America had not intervened in World War I, the opposing sides would have had to work out a negotiated peace rather than have an unjust peace treaty imposed on the defeated and conquered side.

2. Embracing the same arguments that many Westerners, including John Maynard Keynes, were making with respect to the unjust parts of the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler was able to rouse support among the German people for himself and the Nazi Party.

3. Perhaps the most important point made in Buchanan’s book is regarding the Polish guarantee. After Hitler absorbed Czechoslovakia, Great Britain issued a guarantee to Poland promising to declare war on Hitler in the event of a German attack. Yet, the guarantee was worthless because Britain lacked the military means to reverse a German attack. Knowing that they had the guarantee, Polish officials refused to negotiate a revision of that portion of the Treaty of Versailles that had removed a major German city, Danzig, from German control, a provision that many Westerners also considered unjust.

Among the ironies of the Polish guarantee was that when the Soviet Union invaded Poland a few days after Germany invaded Poland, pursuant to a pact between Stalin and Hitler, Britain declared war only on Nazi Germany and not on the communist Soviet Union. This was despite the fact that ever since the Communist Revolution, Great Britain had condemned the Soviet communists, and rightfully so.

4. Britain (along with the United States, France, and other Allied nations) ultimately entered into a partnership with the Soviet communists, who were actually no better than the Nazis. When the war ended, the Polish people (and East Germans, Czechs, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and others) — the people to whom Britain had issued its guarantee — were under Soviet communist occupation (as compared to German Nazi occupation) and remained so for the next 45 years. That’s because of the deal that Winston Churchill, Franklin Roosevelt, and Joseph Stalin entered into, a deal in which Churchill and Roosevelt knowingly and intentionally agreed to deliver Eastern Europe into the clutches of Stalin and the communists.

5. Then, the Soviet communists — the partners of Great Britain and the United States — became the new official enemy, which began the Cold War, which served to maintain and expand the U.S. military and military-industrial complex for the next 45 years.

The aftermath of World War II not only produced Soviet communist control of East Germany, Eastern Europe, the Baltics, and elsewhere but also communist control over China, hot wars in Korea and Vietnam, and a Cold War all over the world.

Of course, some people argue that victory in World War II brought freedom to Great Britain and France. But Great Britain and France were free before the war. Don’t forget: It was Great Britain and France that declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

In fact, Buchanan destroys another long-held myth — that Hitler intended to conquer the world, including the United States. As Buchanan carefully documents, Hitler was looking east, not west for expanding the German Empire. Just as Western politicians would do during the 45 years of the Cold War, Hitler viewed communism, not Great Britain, France, and the United States, as the real threat. After all, if Hitler were looking to conquer the world, as the interventionists argue, isn’t it interesting that he lacked the naval power to even cross the English Channel and conquer England, much less the naval power to cross the Atlantic Ocean to conquer the United States?

Some people argue that World War II was necessary because the world could not have survived Hitler and the Nazis. Nonsense. If the world could survive Stalin and the communists, it could have survived Hitler and the Nazis because Stalin and the communists were worse, or at least as bad, as Hitler and the Nazis.

With respect to the Holocaust, Buchanan documents how it was the war itself that brought it about. Prior to the war, Hitler’s objective had been to evict the Jews from Germany. Once Hitler realized that he was going to lose the war, he implemented his Final Solution. One thing is certain—by the time the war was over, most of the European Jews were already dead.

Pat Buchanan has done a masterful job in challenging the many myths surrounding both World War I and World War II. His book is a must-read for anyone concerned about the moving our nation in the direction of the non-interventionist, non-militarist, anti-empire philosophy of America’s Founding Fathers.


http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2008-07-29.asp

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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby Sid Guttridge » 08 Aug 2008 11:36

Hi J. Duncan,

Britain was only contractually obliged by it guarantee to support Poland against Germany.

This guarantee was limited to Germany because Poland was involved in other border disputes of varying legitimacy with all of its neighbours except Romania and Latvia.

In the case of the USSR, after WWI the UK had arbitrated the Curzon Line as Poland's eastern border so that it embraced majority Polish areas. However, after its victory over the Red Army in 1919-20 Poland had pushed its frontier much further east than the Polish ethnic frontier. In fact, although Poles were the largest single ethnic group in Eastern Poland, they were outnumbered by other peoples, such as Ukrainians and White Russians, who had their own SSRs in the USSR. Britain could therefore not guarantee Poland's 1939 Eastern frontier without contradicting its own post-WWI arbitration of Poland's ethnic eastern border. (Incidentally, Poland's eastern border returned after WWII to a line very close to that recommended by the British after WWI and remains there today.)

Cheers,

Sid.

J. Duncan
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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby J. Duncan » 08 Aug 2008 20:32

Interesting info...thanks. Did the british feel that stalin was somehow "justified" by his polish grab in the russo-german Protocol of 1939?

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Re: Churchill, Hitler, and "The Unnecessary War"

Postby The_Enigma » 08 Aug 2008 20:48

Ranke wrote:It was clear from his interview on CNN that Buchanan hasn't a clue. It is a shame that such drivel masquerading as history gets published and gets so much publicity when cutting edge research by serious writers barely gets read. IMO the title of this thread should read: "Buchanan and 'the Unnecessary Book."

:lol:

While excoriating Chamberlain for appeasing Hitler, Churchill’s own appeasement of Stalin lasted longer and was even more egregious and costly, ensuring that the causes for which Britain sacrificed the empire — the freedom of Poland and preventing a hostile power from dominating Europe — were lost.

&

Churchill’s astonishing blindness to Stalin’s true ambitions.


See i was under the naive impression that a little conferance held between the Western allied leaders and the Soviets is what settled it all - not just Churchill on his own, who again i was under the impression had a very bleak outlook towards the Soviets and Stalin that others. :?

What I meant to say was mass killings of the Jewish people,the so-called Holocaust, began after the war began. The camps in Poland weren't built until after the war began.

And like another poster said, Wannsee Conference was not until 1942, after the war began in 1939.


Bob, there is another topic laying around somewhere - in it people were having a bit of a heated discussion on what exactly genocide is. One of them made the point of genocide is not just the mass killing of people, that is just one of the final factors in it. The points he typed up positioned the Nazi regime on the path of genocide well before the war began.

I should think we should remember the other 6-7 million also mass murdered by the Nazi regime and not soley remember the 6 million Jewish people.

Edit: First post by Ranke in this topic is what i was referring to
to quote him:
I repeat, according to a foremost authority on genocide, Gregory Stanton, "The 8 Stages of Genocide,' 1996, genocide is not JUST the physical extermination. That is JUST ONE STAGE.

These are the 8 stages. It seems that the Germans got through the first 6 before the war began.
1.Classification: People are divided into "us and them".
2.Symbolization:"When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups..."
3.Dehumanization:"One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases."
4.Organization:"Genocide is always organized... Special army units or militias are often trained and armed..."
5.Polarization: "Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda..."
6.Preparation: "Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity..."
7.Extermination: "It is "extermination" to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human."
8.Denial: "The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes..."


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