Poland 1939: KIA German officers

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Feb 2009 00:13

Njorl wrote:
Domen121 wrote: I also know that - for example - near Iłża there was a cemetery with 89 German military graves, and today it does not exist.

It existed only until 1940.
Maybe the graves were moved to "Sammelfriedhof" in Puławy - after all it's not far from Iłża. It is also important that German word "Sammelfriedhof" means that it 'collects' graves - presumably taken from different locations and moved there.

Regards,
MJU
Soldiers of 3. Leichte-Division (+ some from 2. Leichte-Division) KIA on 8th and 9th of September were burried there.

Are there any soldiers of 3. Leichte-Division KIA on 8th and 9th of September burried in Pulawy?

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Domen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Bernd R » 27 Feb 2009 12:30

The master list is updated per the edit by Stauffenberg II from 26 Feb, 20:36 . 16 new - 3 new in research section (Hilbert, Barth, Meis(s)ner) - new total : 716 / + 13 .
Wolfgang Gadow not in the edit / not listed per decision/agreement. Walter Schott not yet included.
Yes, looks like that approximately 10% of the total per now are still to add. Looks also like that the result will be in the range then of the Overmars MGFA publication ("Wehrmachtverlustwesen", 1944), which is (819) if I learned this correctly.

Re: thanks Jürgen for Meisner, Pz.Abt. 67 ; allows another sharp look into the VB database ; there are such a lot of all Meissner/Meißner/Meisner ; one possible match (VB entry) is Meissner, Otto, 09/39, Schmiegel, but I'm not through this.

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Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Feb 2009 13:13

Yes, looks like that approximately 10% of the total per now are still to add.
I think that more than 10% are still to add.

The highest figure for the officer casualties of Heeres I have seen so far is 819 killed (Rudiger Overmans). But as Jurgen wrote on the first page of this thread:
There is no official and final figure for the total German Wehrmacht losses and the officer losses during the campaign. As there are no available lists by name from the Heeresgruppe Süd-area (according to Manstein, Verlorene Siege, S. 52, 505 KIA officers and 42 MIA officers), the Luftwaffe (probably at least 60 KIA officers) and the Kriegsmarine the difference of the officers listed here to a total amount to be unveiled is predominantly deriving from the lack of similar data from these branches.
The list contains 219 KIA officers and 15 MIA officers by name. The info from this list is enriched with data from the Volksbund site. Those officers from this list are marked with “H. Gru. Nord” as source.
So my conclusion is that the list of H. Gru. Nord could have been a working paper only as it appears to be to embarrassingly erroneous to be a final document of a German high command unit. We will have to keep this in mind when using the list. Working paper or not ... we must be thankful that the paper is available as it contains a lot of invaluable info.
So even this figure (819) may be not fully complete. Apart from at least 819 killed (this figure most probably includes also those of initially reported as missing who were later recognized as killed), some were also missing and never found but they were not recognized as dead and still figured as missing (I estimate that it could be at least several to 15 officers).

To this figure we must add also casualties of OKL (including ground units - e.g. Flakartillerie, etc.) and Kriegsmarine.

If it comes to OKL / Luftwaffe officer losses, I have got three different figures:

"Wojna Obronna Polski 1939" - OKL:

60 officers KIA
65 officers MIA

"Obrona Polski 1939" by T. Jurga - Luftwaffe:

60 officers KIA
16 officers MIA

Fritz Hahn - Luftwaffe:

46 officers KIA
38 officers MIA

To summ up: Jurgen's estimation regarding Luftwaffe officer casualties was quite accurate ("probably at least 60 KIA officers"), but many more were also missing and later recognized as dead or never found.

Kriegsmarine officer casualties in Poland according to Hahn were 4 officers killed (total Kriegsmarine killed according to Hahn: 77).

But Hahn is not very reliable as he gives officer casualties of Heeres as only 364 dead, 527 wounded and 69 missing.

According to "Obrona Polski 1939" by T. Jurga, Kriegsmarine lost 7 missing officers. He gives the killed figure for Kriegsmarine as 97 (so 20 more than Hahn), but he does not provide the number of killed officers.

So we can estimate that Kriegsmarine lost at least 5 - 4 killed and 7 missing officers.

So far we probably don't have any officer from Kriegsmarine listed, do we?

Minensucher M 85 suffered big part of the Kriegsmarine casualties in Poland (24 dead and 10 WIA) - this can be a very useful clue for us while searching for Kriegsmarine officer casualties.

Apart from Minensucher M 85 also one more German ship was sunk by Polish forces during the campaign - it was Motorfischkutter Pillau 55 (13 BRT), sank by Polish mine planted by ORP "Wilk".

But nobody from the crew of MFK Pil.55 died. Another thing is that it did not even belong to Kriegsmarine and was not a military unit.

There was also that accident with "Tiger" in late August of 1939 - when German ships were starting their military operations against Poland (but soon after that the first order to attack Poland was canceled by Hitler and the beginning of the invasion was postponed to 1st of September) - as the result of that accident "Tiger" was sank and 1/4 of the crew died - but I don't know if these casualties are included to the casualty figures for the Polish Campaign given above.

Apart from these losses, Kriegsmarine ships suffered men casualties due to Polish ground forces - mainly artillery fire - and due to Polish fleet (for example on 03.09.1939 Z1 Leberecht Maass was damaged by ORP "Wicher" and ORP "Gryf" - but I don't know if there were any men casualties).

Also Kriegsmarine ground units suffered big casualties (mainly during the battle of Westerplatte) - but I'm also not shure if these losses are included to the figures above.
Looks also like that the result will be in the range then of the Overmars MGFA publication ("Wehrmachtverlustwesen", 1944), which is (819) if I learned this correctly.
As I wrote - this number (819) from Overmans only refers to casualties of Heeres, not the whole Wehrmacht.

The number is also given in his book "Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg", page 54.
16 new - 3 new in research section (Hilbert, Barth, Meis(s)ner) - new total : 716 / + 13 .
Bernd, don't forget about adding also Grczeszecyk (maybe his proper name was Grzeszczyk?) to the research list please.

Best regards
Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Bernd R » 27 Feb 2009 22:53

Grczeszecyk Willy, 29.01.1910, Obzahlmstr., Stab I.R. 83., 28. Div., 17.11.1939
I wrote : This calls for a decision to include those Wehrmachtbeamte.

Jürgen wrote : Peter: I did not found Grczeszecyk.

Peter wrote : Bernd, don't forget about adding also Grczeszecyk (maybe his proper name was Grzeszczyk?) to the research list please.
If there is no objection (?). Where did you find him, Peter ? - weltkriegsopfer or on one of the denkmalprojekt pages ?
Minensucher M 85 suffered big part of the Kriegsmarine casualties in Poland (24 dead and 10 WIA) - this can be a very useful clue for us while searching for Kriegsmarine officer casualties.

Apart from Minensucher M 85 also one more German ship was sunk by Polish forces during the campaign - it was Motorfischkutter Pillau 55 (13 BRT), sank by Polish mine planted by ORP "Wilk".

But nobody from the crew of MFK Pil.55 died. Another thing is that it did not even belong to Kriegsmarine and was not a military unit.
Peter, Yes, I was on a quick search for that but without result so far. M 85 is always said to be the only loss of a KM vessel (crushed on a mine laid by a Polish uboat ; Kommandant was resued).

Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Bernd R » 27 Feb 2009 23:05

Per VB and http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/dkm_deuts ... 2_hess.htm here is a minor correction and one new.
Dr. Boese Joachim, 20.01.1922, Stabsarzt, -, 3. Div., 13.09.1939 (b. Radziwie), Dieckhoff 3. Infanterie-Division, 3. Infanterie-Division (mot.), 3. Panzergrenadier-Division
The birth date per VB is wrong for sure. If correct this is a Stabsarzt aged 17 ! Correct date of birth should be 1912 per the Marburg page. Typo on the VB database like it happens inevitably.

- new -
Nachname: Schulte
Vorname: Theo Robert
Dienstgrad: Major
Geburtsdatum: 15.03.1890
Geburtsort: Groß Gifhorn
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 10.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Stetanowo Kol.
EK I and II WW1, probably Major d.R. ; a Major ! Curious about his unit.

/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Feb 2009 23:27

Where did you find him, Peter ? - weltkriegsopfer or on one of the denkmalprojekt pages ?
On one of the denkmalprojekt pages.
Bernd R wrote: Peter, Yes, I was on a quick search for that but without result so far. M 85 is always said to be the only loss of a KM vessel (crushed on a mine laid by a Polish uboat ; Kommandant was resued).

Bernd
Because MFK Pil.55 did not belong to KM and it even wasn't a military unit. But it was also sank by Polish mine.

And torpedo vessel "Tiger" belonged to Kriegsmarine and sank due to accident on 26th of August 1939.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 28 Feb 2009 10:51

Hi Bernd!

Could you please add the following 5 new entries:
Bauch Werner Paul, 05.02.1914, Lt., -, -, 09.09.1939 (südl. Radom), VB
Hauck Joachim, 23.12.1915, Lt. d. R., -, -, 19.09.1939 (Sierakow), VB
Pachur Josef, 13.12.1892, Hptm. d. R., -, -, 11.09.1939 (Kr. Laz. Abt. mot. 531 Schieratz), VB
Schulte Theo Robert, 15.03.1890, Maj., -, -, 10.09.1939 (Stetanowo Kol.), VB
Wandel Martin, 05.08.1906, Hptm., -, -, 21.09.1939 (Modlin-Janowek (Janarek)), VB

As I was able to identify a further unknown H. Gru. Nord officer (Bückmann = Böckmann according to VB) and in order to add some more info I suggest to do the following replacement entries:
Boeckmann Fritz, 28.01.1914, Lt., -, -, 02.10.1939 (Kr. Laz. Krakau), VB
Bückmann (gem. VB Böckmann) Heinrich, 26.06.1909, Lt., A. A. 3, 3. Div., 03.09.1939 (Topolno, Bez.Bydgoszcz), VB, H. Gru. Nord
Kinitz (fälschlich „von Kienitz“) Albrecht, 18.01.1906, Hptm., Kdr. 4./Krd. Sch. Btl 1, 1. Pz. Div., 30.10.1939 n. Verw. v. 16. auf 17.09. (Fahnenjunkerjg. 1926: 31.10.1939), VB, Gedenkschrift des Fahnenjunkerjahrgangs 1926

Furthermore I suggest to include Oblt. Bachstel into the research section because it´s the only officer out of Dieckhoff which could not be found but the source appears to be excellent:
20.09.1939

Ilow
3. / I.R. 50
Kp.Chef Oblt. Bachstel

Source :
Dieckhoff Gerhard 3 Infanterie-Division, 3 Infanterie-Division (mot.), 3 Panzergrenadier-Division Göttingen, 1960
Bernd ... let me stress that I am very much obliged for your kind help.

Jürgen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 28 Feb 2009 12:49

And what are we going to do with: Grczeszecyk Willy, 29.01.1910, Obzahlmstr., Stab I.R. 83., 28. Div., 17.11.1939?

I suggest adding him to the research list.

/ Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Njorl » 28 Feb 2009 19:50

Only Leutnants, but still 2 more to add:
Nachname: Tacke
Vorname: Herbert August Otto
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 11.03.1919
Geburtsort: Velten
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 17.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Brochow
Nachname: Sölla
Vorname: Hans
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 14.10.1918
Geburtsort: Tittmoning
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 25.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Warschau-Racowice
Regards,
MJU

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by crolick » 28 Feb 2009 21:23

The full list of casualties for the German forces fighting on the coast:
322 IR/207 ID (5)
Leutnant d. R. Kurt König – 8 IX
Major d. R Heinrich Diest – 13 IX
Leutnant d. R. Werner Korth – 13 IX
Hauptmann d. R Jobst Kyau – 13 IX
Leutnant d. R. Karl Hiller – 19 IX

368 IR/207 ID (9)
Hauptmann d. L. Kurt Fischer – 12 IX
Leutnant d. R. Franz Stephan Garske – 12 IX
Oberleutnant d. L. Franz Goldbeck – 12 IX
Hauptmann Wilhelm Henning – 12 IX
Leutnant Kanter – 12 IX
Hauptmann d. R. Oskar Schild – 12 IX
Leutnant d. R. Oskar Adolf Paul Telke – 18 IX
Leutnant d. R. Günter Flemming – 19 IX
Leutnant Hans Flemming – 19 IX

374 IR/207 ID (0) (sic!)

III/89 /207 ID (1)
Leutnant Trofin von Baranoff – 9 IX

207 AR/207 ID (3)
Rittmeister d. R. Jürgen Werner von Bandemer – 5 IX
Leutnant von Waldow – 28 IX
Major d. R. Fritz Christoph – 30 IX


GR 32 (2)
Oberleutnant Friedrich Riemann – 13 IX
Hauptmann Georg Jescow Freiherr von Puttkamer – 17 IX

GR 42 (1)
??


Brigade Eberhardt (4)
??
??
??
??

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 28 Feb 2009 22:28

Rittmeister d. R. Jürgen Werner von Bandemer – 5 IX
Leutnant von Waldow – 28 IX
What's your source? Could not trace down both in the Stellenbesetzung of AR 207 for 1st September.

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 28 Feb 2009 22:42

crolick wrote:The full list of casualties for the German forces fighting on the coast:
Full? Crolick, you probably forgot about him:

Marine-Stosstrupp-Kompanie from Schleswig-Holstein lost its commander (he died of wounds on 02.09.1939):
Henningsen Wilhelm, 29.07.1904, Oblt. z. See, Linienschiff Schleswig-Holstein, -, 02.09.1939 (Westerplatte), VB, H. Gru. Nord.
Westerplatte is also on the coast ;).

Btw - check out if Franz Lehfellner was an officer. He was KIA on 15.09.1939.
What's your source? Could not trace down both in the Stellenbesetzung of AR 207 for 1st September.
I will let Crolick answer of course. I'm shure that he is right as he is an expert if it comes to combats in Polish coastal area ;). But I suppose that one of his sources is this report:

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 21#p215721

Cheers!

Domen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by crolick » 01 Mar 2009 00:21

Jan-Hendrik wrote:What's your source? Could not trace down both in the Stellenbesetzung of AR 207 for 1st September.

Jan-Hendrik
See p. 8 and p. 11 of this thread (or master list :wink:)

I have omitted info from this post - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1302773 - hence Waldow should be place under II./12 AR which was attached to 207 ID on 1 IX 1939


Domen - right you are! So Henningsen should be one of the Eberhard's Group officers who was lost.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Mar 2009 00:28

But still Kavallerie Regiment 5., Gruppe "Medem" and several smaller unit remain. I'm shure they also lost many officers killed (especcialy Gruppe "Medem").

And what about SS Heimwehr-Danzig? According to Rolf Michaelis it lost 39 KIA while fighting against LOW, but it also lost 5 to 10 KIA while fighting in Gdansk against Westerplatte (I have got names of 5 of them). Were there any officers among them?
crolick wrote: Domen - right you are! So Henningsen should be one of the Eberhard's Group officers who was lost.
Are you shure?

Was Marine-Stosstrupp-Kompanie part of Brigade Eberhardt?

Brigade Eberhardt was an Army unit, and Marine-Stosstrupp-Kompanie from Schleswig-Holstein belonged to Kriegsmarine (Kriegsmarine ground unit).

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by crolick » 01 Mar 2009 00:54

Kavallerie Regiment 5 was definitely not attached to 207 ID or GAK I. The same applies to Gruppe Medem.

No - I'm not sure since I have not yet researched OdeB of Eberhard's Group so I might be (and probably are) wrong...

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