Poland 1939: KIA German officers

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 09 Apr 2009 09:27

Hi!

Uebe Kurt, 17.12.1885 (vermutl. jedoch eher 1895), Obstlt., [Kdr. I. Btl./I. R. 42], [46. Div.], 25.09.1939 (Fort Tsche-Warschau), VB, StB 1938 – gem Landser-Serie durch „friendly fire“


As regards friendly fire victims like pointed out above. A similar case:

Fernschreiben Koluft H. Gru. Nord an Luftflotte 4
25.09.1939 23:50
Laufende Nr.: 2858

"Es wird dringend gebeten wegen Gefährdung eigener Truppen von Luftangriffen auf Praga Abstand zu nehmen. Durch Luftangriff am 25.9.1939 sind bei 3. Armee schwere Verluste eingetreten.

Heeresgruppe Nord Koluft"

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 09 Apr 2009 09:54

Hi Jurgen,

Yes all to research section, Bunzel and Weyrauch apart, who are already listed


Why Busing and Pisarski to the research section? I think they should be added to the master list. What do you think is still unclear about them?

If it comes to Bunzel - do you think that the already listed Major Joachim Bunzel KIA on 16.09.1939 near Bednary-Myslakow is the same man as Kaplan Dr. Bunzel, clergyman from Gustav-Adolf-Kirche in Breslau KIA on 16.09.1939 at the Bzura river? I think that Kaplan is an equivalent of Hauptmann, not Major? Am I right? But older chaplain in Polish army is an equivalent of major. Maybe he was an older chaplain - Oberkaplan?

So maybe you are right. It seems that both Bednary and Myslakow are located in the Bzura valley in Commune Nieborow:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmina_Niebor%C3%B3w

If it comes to Weyrauch - yes, he is already listed indeed, somehow I missed his entry - maybe because he is listed in the research section. Btw, why not in the master list? Weyrauch should also be listed in the master list, imho.

Regards!
Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 09 Apr 2009 10:40

This might be useful in establishing units for the officers already listed or searching for new officers from some units:

Here is what I've managed to gather if it comes to casualties of some units:

Fatal casualties - KIA + MIA (numbers of officers in brackets):

1. Pz.Div. = 295 - 271 (22) - (casualties in period 01.09.1939 - 20.09.1939)
4. Pz.Div. + attached units = 657 - 735 (28+ - 31+) - (casualties in period 01.09.1939 - 20.09.1939 / 20.09.1939+)
213. Inf.Div. = 145 (11) - (casualties up to 28.09.1939)
1. lei.Pz.Div. = 305 (22) - (casualties up to 25.09.1939)
29. Inf.Div. (mot.) = 316 (17) - (up to 28.09.1939 - so without casualties during the battle of Kock in October)
2. lei.Pz.Div. = 326 (22) - (up to 28.09.1939)
13. Inf.Div. (mot.) = 300 (17) - (up to 25.09.1939 - so without casualties during the battle of Kock in October)
28. Inf.Div. = 579 (16)
31. Inf.Div. = 250 (4) - [and: WIA : 4 Offz , 135 Uffz und Msch] - (casualties up to 21.09.1939 [Meldung of the div. , per Regimentsgeschichte IR 12 , beyond that: "Uber die Verluste liegen keine verlasslichen Nachrichten vor" - so without casualties during the heavy combats in Warsaw (attacking in the area Wlochy - Okecie - Fort Sczesliwice - Czyste - Ochota) between 23 and 27 IX)
207. Inf.Div. = 332 (18)
Brigade "Eberhardt" = 117 (4)
GR.32 = 34 (2)
GR.42 = 37 (1)
1. Geb.Div. = 484 - 503 (31 - 50 - but in my opinion Kaltenegger confused number of WIA and number of KIA)
21. Inf.Div. = 278+ (6)
-----------------------------
30. Inf.Div. = 795+ KIA (29+) / at least 117 and up to 500 - 617 MIA (?) / 794+ WIA (44+)
IR.26 = 287 KIA (7) / unknown number of MIA / 246 WIA (14)
I./IR.26 - in period 13.09.1939 - 20.09.1939 = 39 KIA (1) / 87 MIA (0) / 58 WIA (5)
-----------------------------
50. Inf.Div. = 261 - 202 (9+)
45. Inf.Div. = 158+ (casualties during the battle of Oleszyce = 124 KIA, including 7 officers)
AA.17 = 40 - 41+ (2 - 3)
22. Luftlande Inf.Div. (in Poland) = 10+ (0+)
7. Flieger Division = 52 - 53+ (0+)
SS "Heimwehr-Danzig" = 44 - 49 (3+)
SS "Deutschland" = 103 - 100 KIA (5) + unknown but relatively high number of MIA (?)
I./PR.7 = 29 (3+)
Korpstruppen XIV = 56 (2) - (casualties up to 25.09.1939)
Korpstruppen XVI = 22 (4) - (casualties up to 20.09.1939)
I./Flak-Regiment 22. - casualties on 09.09.1939 (battle of Ilza) = 17 (4)
PR.3 = 61 (6)
I./S.R.2 - casualties on 08.09.1939 (battle of Biskupice Radlowskie) = 43 (1)
PR.8 = 13 (2) - (up to 17.09.1939)

PS:

I have got more exact breakdowns (casualties of each unit of the divison) for 4. Pz.Div. + attached units, 21. Inf.Div., 30. Inf.Div.

And here fatal casualties of some other units (but I don't know numbers of officers):

KIA + MIA / WIA

18. Inf.Div. = 717 KIA / unknown number of MIA / 1294 WIA (Inf.Rgt.30 = 279 KIA / unknown MIA / 410 WIA)
XIX Panzer Korps (Guderian) = 891 / 1345 WIA or 800 KIA and 2286 WIA + MIA (including the battle for the Corridor = 150 KIA / unknown MIA / 700 WIA or 150 KIA / 700 WIA + MIA)
208. Inf.Div. = 278 / 359 WIA
19. Inf.Div. = 400+ / unknown number of WIA (I./Inf.Rgt.73 = 51 KIA / unknown MIA / 110 WIA)
Brigade "Netze" = 245 / 309 WIA
221. Inf.Div. = 175 / 273 WIA
24. Inf.Div. = 505 - 570 / 1017 WIA
10. Inf.Div. = 428 / 956 WIA or 1535 soldiers KIA / MIA / WIA (Inf.Rgt.85 = 124 KIA / 5 MIA / 265 WIA)
SS "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" (in period when it was supporting 17. Inf.Div.) = 119 KIA / 3 MIA / 292 WIA
17. Inf.Div. (including AA.17) = 413 / around 609 WIA
44. Inf.Div. = 165 / 270 WIA
3. Inf.Div. - casualties in period 11.09.1939 - 18.09.1939 - 121 / 211 WIA
SS-Wachtsturmbann E (casualties in Gdańsk) – 12 KIA / 20 WIA
Polizei from Danzig (casualties in Gdansk) - 15 KIA / 33 WIA
Inf.Rgt.96 - casualties on 16.09.1939 in Warsaw (Praga) - 150 men
10. Jäger-Kp IR.17 (31. Inf.Div.) – 18 KIA
----------------------------
Pz.Div. "Kempf" - 189+ KIA / 567+ MIA and WIA
SS Aufklarungs Abteilung – casualties on 13.09.1939 (Seroczyn) – 11 KIA / 40 WIA
----------------------------
3. lei.Pz.Div. - casualties during the battle of Ilza (08.09.1939 - 09.09.1939) = 87+ KIA / 179+ WIA - casualties during the battle of Samsonow - Krasna - Luta (06.09.1939) = 103 KIA
II./KSR 8. from 3. lei.Pz.Div. - casualties on 06.09.1939, combats near Krassa - probably Krasna during the battle of Samsonow - Krasna - Luta? = 14 KIA / 41 WIA)
----------------------------
Panzer-Regiment 4. = 11 KIA / 21 WIA
Panzer-Jaeger-Abteilung 38. = 11 KIA / 12 WIA
Last edited by Peter K on 09 Apr 2009 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 09 Apr 2009 12:10

The master list is updated per the edit by Stauffenberg II from 8 Apr, 21:48 and 9 Apr, 06:32. New : 16 - research in : 4 - new total : 844 / + 39 .

Going on with the "preuß. Beamten mode" (sorry as always, it helps to not get lost), just a short note. Quite a lot of interesting things lately ! Comments and input from my side separately, if it might contribute to progress. "Clerk relevant" and main points in short :
1) Jürgen, I spotted that one of the new VB men was overlooked (?)
Nachname: Kiersch
Vorname: Werner
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 28.01.1918
Geburtsort: Lichtenwaldau
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 16.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Osuchy

2) Peter, I've added R as done to your previous page letter post. Thanks for the unit lists above, which should be a good draft/background for work and cross-check.
I'm on S and J right now.

Best regards
Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 09 Apr 2009 12:35

Thanks for the unit lists above, which should be a good draft/background for work and cross-check.


No problem. I hope that they will. :wink:

Btw - I've just noticed that there is a small mistake there (Korpstruppen XIV listed twice - instead of XIV + XVI) - so I will edit and correct it.

2) Peter, I've added R as done to your previous page letter post.


I remember that you've mentioned some unclear / potential findings in R, to come out later. What about them? Maybe the proper time has come for them? :wink:

Regards!
Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 09 Apr 2009 12:44

I have minimum 30 potential findings / issues so far. I will try to find a mix to not overload the thread and to post them next bit by bit, no problem. For a number I'm still searching, but Yes, should be preferable to have them available for all to research.

/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 09 Apr 2009 13:14

Series of VB entries not 100% clear / officers potentially falling within the definition established.
Starting with Z - a clarification (think so) and 1 case :
Nachname: Ziebell
Vorname: Albrecht
Dienstgrad: Unterveterinär
Geburtsdatum: 18.08.1898
Geburtsort: Köslin
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 04.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Krs.Krkhs.Osterode/Opr.

We said that this rank (Dienstgrad / Rangbezeichnung) is not to be inlcuded here ; like Unterarzt as well. "Unterveterinär" belongs to the NCOs - Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (resp. Oberfähnriche). Like "Schirrmeister", too, for example (as there are a number of Schirrmeister KIA). Beside the rank compilation we had already in the thread - here's another undoubtable source : Rudolf Absolon, Die Wehrmacht im dritten Reich
http://books.google.de/books?id=HHY--Ac2ynEC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=Unterveterin%C3%A4r+%2BWehrmacht&source=bl&ots=DH7LWPZdq-&sig=BR5ZSvGApzuNENEjqgvTEt8HMxo&hl=de&ei=LuHdSai_EduMsAay9qG_DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

Nachname: Ziegler
Vorname: Martin
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 05.10.1887
Geburtsort: Nachterstedt
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 28.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

Martin Ziegler ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Berlin-Rei.-Tegel-Freiheitsweg (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) .
Endgrablage: Reihe 2 Grab 1


/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 09 Apr 2009 14:50

So unclear cases are these with no death place given? Yesterday I found two such cases in VB, but I forgot to note down their surnames.

Maybe we should create another research section / something like that for such cases, to have them all listed in one place?

Regards
Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 09 Apr 2009 18:49

Hm, "unclear" to me is all where I can't say Yes or can't rule out immediately based on the data provided. This includes unsureness of course, but also a bit of feeling and experience sometimes, taking into account the many typos in the VB database also (see Weinert + comment e.g.).

Next series : W and V - 5 cases

Nachname: Weinert
Vorname: Max
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 22.06.1911
Geburtsort: Koscianio
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 22.11.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: H.V.Pl.d.2.San.Kp.252 Hamburg/Saar-

Max Weinert wurde noch nicht auf einen vom Volksbund errichteten Soldatenfriedhof überführt oder konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden. Nach den uns vorliegenden Informationen befindet sich sein Grab derzeit noch an folgendem Ort:

Nysa - Polen

This data set has all to create irritation and allows every interpretation IMO. Or someone does understand it ?
Place of death most probably reads -> Homburg/Saar. This city I know is in the West ; 252. ID was there in the end of the year. On the other hand - 252. ID was zVfg. HGr. Süd in Poland if I'm correct ; 2.San.Kp. 252 belongs to that division. And, grave at Nysa .. ??

Nachname: Wurdinger
Vorname: Friedrich
Dienstgrad: Rittmeister
Geburtsdatum: 17.07.1886
Geburtsort: Saaz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 28.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Saaz

Friedrich Wurdinger konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden.

Die vorgesehene Überführung zum Sammelfriedhof in Marianske Lazne (Tschechische Republik) war somit leider nicht möglich.
Sein Name wird im Gedenkbuch des Friedhofes verzeichnet.

Most likely died at home. ??

Nachname: Wolf
Vorname: Karl
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 06.12.1914
Geburtsort: Frankfurt am Main
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 04.10.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

Karl Wolf ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Frankfurt/Main-Oberrad-Waldfriedhof (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) .
Endgrablage: Block 4 Reihe 50 Grab 5

??

Nachname: Vogelsang
Vorname: August Karl
Dienstgrad: Hauptmann
Geburtsdatum: 11.08.1890
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 02.12.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

August Karl Vogelsang ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Hamburg-Ohlsdorf (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) .
Endgrablage: Einzelgrab

It appears to me that a number of wounded transfered back home with the Lazarett ships arrived and were hospitalized in Hamburg. The cemetary Hamburg-Ohlsdorf is a very big one with many different men KIA from everywhere and appears to be one for a number of those died from wounds suffered in Poland -> hypothesis. For completion, for a first time period the Lazarettschiffe stayed at the coast of Poland (several entries confirming that.).

Nachname: Valicek
Vorname: Otto
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 10.08.1916
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 03.10.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

Otto Valicek ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Wien-Zentralfriedhof Gruppe 97 (Österreich) .
Endgrablage: Block 6

??


/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 09 Apr 2009 20:28

Bernd R wrote:1) Jürgen, I spotted that one of the new VB men was overlooked (?)

Nachname: Kiersch
Vorname: Werner
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 28.01.1918
Geburtsort: Lichtenwaldau
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 16.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Osuchy



I am sorry, you are right:

Kiersch Werner, 28.01.1918, Lt., -, -, 16.09.1939 (Osuchy), VB
Last edited by Stauffenberg II on 09 Apr 2009 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 09 Apr 2009 20:37

Bernd R wrote:
Nachname: Weinert
Vorname: Max
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 22.06.1911
Geburtsort: Koscianio
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 22.11.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: H.V.Pl.d.2.San.Kp.252 Hamburg/Saar-

Max Weinert wurde noch nicht auf einen vom Volksbund errichteten Soldatenfriedhof überführt oder konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden. Nach den uns vorliegenden Informationen befindet sich sein Grab derzeit noch an folgendem Ort:

Nysa - Polen

This data set has all to create irritation and allows every interpretation IMO. Or someone does understand it ?
Place of death most probably reads -> Homburg/Saar. This city I know is in the West ; 252. ID was there in the end of the year. On the other hand - 252. ID was zVfg. HGr. Süd in Poland if I'm correct ; 2.San.Kp. 252 belongs to that division. And, grave at Nysa .. ??

Nachname: Wurdinger
Vorname: Friedrich
Dienstgrad: Rittmeister
Geburtsdatum: 17.07.1886
Geburtsort: Saaz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 28.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Saaz

Friedrich Wurdinger konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden.

Die vorgesehene Überführung zum Sammelfriedhof in Marianske Lazne (Tschechische Republik) war somit leider nicht möglich.
Sein Name wird im Gedenkbuch des Friedhofes verzeichnet.

Most likely died at home. ??


I have spotted both of them too but considered both quite clear. Weinert: He died in Nov. at the Western front near Homburg / Saar and was obviously buried at home. Nysa was Neiße until 1945 and within Germany. Wurdinger: Coming from Saaz / Sudetenland (today Zatec) and dying near Saaz / Sudetenland. This is in Western Bohemia. No link to the campaign here in my opinion.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 09 Apr 2009 21:01

Domen121 wrote:Hi Jurgen,

Yes all to research section, Bunzel and Weyrauch apart, who are already listed


Why Busing and Pisarski to the research section? I think they should be added to the master list. What do you think is still unclear about them?


I would appreciate any further info on Büsing. It is not that much what we are knowing about him and the question should rather be what is already clear about him?

Nachname: Büsing
Vorname: Julius
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum:
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Laski-Sierakow


Domen121 wrote:If it comes to Weyrauch - yes, he is already listed indeed, somehow I missed his entry - maybe because he is listed in the research section. Btw, why not in the master list? Weyrauch should also be listed in the master list, imho.


Because we agreed (at least I thought so) that the place of death in combination with the date of death is strange. Schroda /Sroda Slaska at 28.09.1939 appears to be at least a big "?".

Peter, Njorl, Bernd,

a general note/question: It is currently too exhausting for me after a hard business day to discuss why somebody is listed in the masterlist, or research section or why. There is huge volume of daily decision making which I am faced with currently. No offense intended, but a democratical decision making on each entry is too troublesome and not possible. So if Bernd is having 30 unclear cases I would appreciate if he would match them to the research sections 3.1-3.3 or opening further, proper research section chapters.

Thanks,
Jürgen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 09 Apr 2009 21:18

Hi Jurgen!,

and the question should rather be what is already clear about him?


It is clear that he died near Laski-Sieraków. There is only one place in the world where villages called Laski and Sierakow are located in the same area - it is in Puszcza Kampinoska, west of Warsaw. The exact date of his death is not given by VB, but VB states that he died in September of 1939 - so the Polish Campaign, Puszcza Kampinoska.

The bloody battle for Laski and Sierakow started exactly at 0:00 AM on 19.09.1939 and ended by the dusk on 19.09.1939.

German army captured Laski and Sierakow for the - most probably - first time on 18.09.1939 (taking the defensive positions there, trying to block the Polish breakthrough attempt to Warsaw - which did not succeed, as Poles broke through during the following day - 19.09.1939).

After 19.09.1939 some other Polish units or groups of remnants from the battle of Bzura might have been advancing through this area while breaking through to Warsaw, but no such fierce battles like the one fought on 19.09.1939 took place.

So my conclusion is that he was certainly KIA in Poland near Laski and Sierakow (as VB states) and although the exact date is not given (VB only says - it was in September of 1939), in my opinion it must have been either on 19.09.1939 or later.

He could have been KIA earlier for example if he was from Luftwaffe - but Emmerling does not say about such an event.

So in my opinion - definitely the Master List, even if some points might be not fully clear. :wink:

Because we agreed (at least I thought so) that the place of death in combination with the date of death is strange. Schroda /Sroda Slaska at 28.09.1939 appears to be at least a big "?".


Sroda Slaska? Isn't his place of death Samter = Szamotuły?

According to at least one German article from a respected (Nazi, but then respected) newspaper from that "historical period", there were some combats around Poznan (Samter is also there) in the late September of 1939 - they were fought between "bands of Polish marauders" and German police / rear units.

So the place of death Samter on 2x.09.1939 is not so strange as it seemed to be.

Morevoer - even if he wasn't KIA there, he could have died of wounds or whatever - anyway - it was certainly related to the Polish Campaign (he was not on holidays there, but on war), so in my opinion - the Master List.

Best regards!
Peter
Last edited by Peter K on 09 Apr 2009 21:31, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Njorl » 09 Apr 2009 21:22

Stauffenberg II wrote:Peter, Njorl, Bernd,

a general note/question: It is currently too exhausting for me after a hard business day to discuss why somebody is listed in the masterlist, or research section or why. There is huge volume of daily decision making which I am faced with currently. No offense intended, but a democratical decision making on each entry is too troublesome and not possible. So if Bernd is having 30 unclear cases I would appreciate if he would match them to the research sections 3.1-3.3 or opening further, proper research section chapters.


No problem for me.

New, rather 'clear' cases, from VB:
Nachname: Bähring
Vorname: Reinhold
Dienstgrad: Leutnant der Reserve
Geburtsdatum: 31.12.1902
Geburtsort: Unterwirbach
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 08.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Skarzysko-SK.

Todesort should probably read Skarżysko-Kamienna.

Nachname: Baetge
Vorname: Siegfried
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 08.01.1916
Geburtsort: Berlin-Lichterfelde
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Jaroslaw


Regards,
MJU

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Stauffenberg II » 09 Apr 2009 21:32

Domen121 wrote:
Because we agreed (at least I thought so) that the place of death in combination with the date of death is strange. Schroda /Sroda Slaska at 28.09.1939 appears to be at least a big "?".


Sroda Slaska? Isn't his place of death Samter = Szamotuły?



Yes, Samter / Szamotuly it is.

Thanks Njorl for:

Bähring Reinhold, 31.12.1902, Lt. d. R., -, -, 08.09.1939 (Skarzysko-Kamienna, VB gibt Skarzysko-Sk.), VB
Baetge Siegfried, 08.01.196, Lt., -, -, 19.09.1939 (Jaroslaw), VB

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