Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
PF
Member
Posts: 2123
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by PF » 19 Aug 2008 14:47

In reagrd to Skornezy's "Operation Greif"
A) How many made up this ad hoc unit?
B) Did only 44 go through US Lines?
C) In a US Engineer history at battle of Bulge-I read that a Jeep of 3/4 Germans in Us Uniforms were killed in the early stages of the Ardennes offensive when they accidently ran over one of their own land mines. Was this part of "Operation Grief" or were these Germans who were wearing captured American Clothing because of the cold? {At least one German
was shot near Hotton because of this and I have seen photogragh of a captured German Corporal having to take off US boots}
D) Were 18 courtmartiled and shot as spys?
E) When used as "Panzerbrigade 150" what were units casualites-besides those already captured and shot?

User avatar
Prosper Vandenbroucke
Member
Posts: 892
Joined: 08 Feb 2005 15:52
Location: Braine le Comte - Belgium

Re: Skornezy "Operation Greif" query

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 19 Aug 2008 18:55

PF wrote:In reagrd to Skornezy's "Operation Greif"
A) How many made up this ad hoc unit?

The Panzerbrigade 150 was composed by +/- 2000 soldiers and they were in front with the 1st Panzerkorps in the Losheim, Graben area. The Panzerbrigade 150 was divised into 3 combat units and each of them must be able to take and hold 3 bridges over the Meuse River.
They could'nt break the american lines and were stopped before they reach the town of Malmedy.


B) Did only 44 go through US Lines?

In fine, Skorzeny send into the american lines only 8 squads composed by 3 or 4 german soldiers wearing american clothes and transported by american vehicles.


C) In a US Engineer history at battle of Bulge-I read that a Jeep of 3/4 Germans in Us Uniforms were killed in the early stages of the Ardennes offensive when they accidently ran over one of their own land mines. Was this part of "Operation Grief" or were these Germans who were wearing captured American Clothing because of the cold? {At least one German
was shot near Hotton because of this and I have seen photogragh of a captured German Corporal having to take off US boots}

That's all right and I have the picture you have seen also, but nothing specified that those men belongs to the Panzerbrigade 150

D) Were 18 courtmartiled and shot as spys?

No, only 4 ( one squad ) were courtmartiled and shot as spys at Henri-Chapelle on the 23th of december. Here are the names of 3 of them:
Wilhelm Schmidt, Günther Billing and Manfred Pernass
A second squad was missing in action. The other 6 squads were able to return into the german lines


E) When used as "Panzerbrigade 150" what were units casualites-besides those already captured and shot?

I couldn't answer to this question, sorry
Hope it helps and apoliges for my poor english
Kindly regards from Belgium

Prosper :wink:
P.S. All this information was found into Peter Taghon's book "La bataille d'Ardenne" (in french or dutch language

PF
Member
Posts: 2123
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Re: Skornezy "Operation Greif" query

Post by PF » 19 Aug 2008 19:16

Thanks for information.
Note_I was mistaken in Reference of Germans killed in a jeep by mine-found reference-it was David Pergrin"First across the Rhine"-circumstances different and comes what happenes of relying on faulty memory!!

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3235
Joined: 19 May 2005 18:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Skornezy "Operation Greif" query

Post by Harro » 20 Aug 2008 13:07

The Jeep dat hit their own landmines sounds like Kampfgruppe X commander Sturmbannführer Willi Hardieck and his crew.
Radiomonitor wrote:04.10.09-1948z---I cannot confirm the exact text you have sent me.

However correct is, that although the attack commenced early morning on
the 16th we were unable to start rolling, because German pioneers had
digged mines into the road we were on, and German pioneers had to remove their mines before Hardieck's armour could move.

We did not move until around noon.

First two panzer, then a couple of lorries, - and then my group and another similar recon group.

We rolled the afternoon, - and at night we were stopped, because the
Americans had control of a road crossing we should pass. A German
vehicle had been shot at and retired.

All night we were stuck before the road crossing, and the next morning
- the 17th - we were instructed to roll back and further south until
we hit the German Westwall Panzersperre.

On one point of the Panzersperre the pioneers had made ramps, so
the Panzer and the lorries, - and then our jeeps, - could cross over
the Westwall, and roll uphill to a small country road, where we were
confronted by Obersturmbannführer Hardieck himself. Also in a jeep
with driver and radio operator.

We were ordered to follow Hardieck's jeep direction north on the
country road and came to a road block, consisting of a few rural
wooden pallisades, of the kind the Belgian farmers use to keep
snow out of their fields.

At this point we took off our German military caps, and our
German carmouflage overall. - We were from there in full American
uniform from steel casket to the brand new boots.

Hardieck rolled left off the road into the field, in order to drive past
the roadblock within the field, and we were ordered to follow.

But we never touched the field.

Hardieck's jeep ran on a mine (German mine), was shot two to three meters up in the air, - turned round so the 3 men in the jeep fell onto
the field, - and their jeep upon them.

I send the youngest man of my team, - Bubi, called so because of his young age, - back to the crossing for help and medics, - and with the
two others of my team, Feldman and Kaiser, we tried to lift the jeep off the men.

We succeeded to turn over the jeep on the side.

The driver and the radio operator were dead.

But Hardieck was alive...

When the ambulance arrived, Hardieck was driven to a German Field-
lazarett in a village we had passed before crossing the Westwall.

Because Hardieck was in American uniform, I sent Bubi with the ambulance back, so he could identify Hardieck as German officer.

Hardieck died later than night in the Field Lazarett.


With Feldman and Kaiser I removed the road block, and we drove
further north to a crossing, where there were a wild kaos.

American lorries fully loaded with soldiers rolled continuously westwards.

A friendly MP in the crossing, saw our HQ5 - ID for General Omar Bradley's headquarters - and waved us into the rolling traffic...

We saved our lives being only three in the jeep...

In Grafenwöhr nobody had known, that the Americans only drive three
in the jeeps...

It was all to much improvisation...

vy73-KAL+

PF
Member
Posts: 2123
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Re: Skornezy "Operation Greif" query

Post by PF » 20 Aug 2008 19:59

Thanks-that apparently was fate of one jeepload!
What did Skornezy write in his biography about "Operation Greif"?

User avatar
AlifRafikKhan
Member
Posts: 8002
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 19:02
Location: Sukabumi, Indonesia

Re: Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by AlifRafikKhan » 27 Jul 2009 01:58

Some English-speaking Germans dressed in American uniforms, helped create confusion behind the Allied lines. Those captured were shot by firing squad: here military policemen tie a resolute Günther Billing to the execution stake...

Source : Book "World War II In Photographs" by Carlton Books
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002 20:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Jul 2009 02:57

Hi PF,
A) How many made up this ad hoc unit?
Although rapidly assembled, Panzer Brigade 150 wasn't an ad hoc unit. It comprised of the following:


Kampfgruppe X (CO Willi Hardiek)
HQ platoon
Three motorized rifle companies riding captured trucks
Two armored infantry platoons
Two antitank platoons
Two mortar platoons
One signals platoon
One engineer platoon
Five Panther tanks
(disguised as US M-10 tank destroyers)
One captured Sherman

Kampfgruppe Y (CO Hauptmann Scherff)
HQ platoon
Three motorized rifle companies riding captured trucks
Two armored infantry platoons
Two antitank platoons
Two mortar platoons
One signals platoon
One engineer platoon
Five StuG assault guns

Kampfgruppe Z
HQ platoon
Three motorized rifle companies in captured trucks
Two armored infantry platoons (estimated)
Two antitank platoons
One signals platoon
One engineer platoon

Infiltration Group
40 US Army Jeeps with English-speaking SS troops dressed in US Army uniforms. (Circa 120 men)

B) Did only 44 go through US Lines?
Something like that.



C) In a US Engineer history at battle of Bulge-I read that a Jeep of 3/4 Germans in Us Uniforms were killed in the early stages of the Ardennes offensive when they accidently ran over one of their own land mines. Was this part of "Operation Grief" or


As Harro pointed out, it's possibly a reference to SS-Obersturmbannführer Hardiek, CO of Kampfgruppe Z, who was KIA when his vehicle ran over a mine on Dec 16, 1944. Yes it was part of Operation Grief.
were these Germans who were wearing captured American Clothing because of the cold? {At least one German
was shot near Hotton because of this and I have seen photogragh of a captured German Corporal having to take off US boots}
Yes. Some Germans stripped US troops of cold weather gear. There's a famous shot of Luftwaffe troops stripping several dead GI's of their footwear at (I believe Honsfeld). Troops from the US 117th IR forced SS POWs to take off their (stolen) US-issue clothing at the town square of Parfondruy on Dec 24, 1944.
D) Were 18 courtmartiled and shot as spys?
Good question. I know at least three members of the Skorzeny commando group were executed as spies on Dec 23, 1944. I don't think the number was as high as 18. Several were KIA.
E) When used as "Panzerbrigade 150" what were units casualites-besides those already captured and shot?
Estimated casualties for Dec 16-23: 45 KIA, 160 WIA, 101 MIA

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5142
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 18:51
Location: At home

Re: Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by ansata1976 » 09 Aug 2009 23:09

Die Zahl die Skorzeny nannte stimmt nicht. Es können folgende Namen "Greif" zugeordnet werden. Als Quelle gibt es eine pdf
Datei der Amerikaner und das Buch von Schadewitz.
Hier der link zur Pdf Datei. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/eto/eto-083.pdf
Auf Seite 49 des Dokumentes ( suchen nach Pernass geht auch)

Beide Quellen nebeneinander ergeben volgendes



21-12-1944 trial

1) Oberfähnrich Günther Billing (executed 23.12.1944)
1) Obergefreiter Wilhelm Schmidt (executed 23.12.1944)
1) Unteroffizier Manfred Pernass (executed 23.12.1944)

23-12-1944 trial

1) Leutnant Wilhelm Wiesenfeld (executed 26.12.1944)
1) Feldwebel Manfred Bronny (executed 26.12.1944)
1) Stabsgefreiter Hans Reich (executed 26.12.1944)

26-12-1944 trial

0) Leutnant Arno Krause (executed 30.12.1944)
1) Leutnant Günther Schilz (executed 30.12.1944)
0) Unteroffizier Erhard Miegel (executed 30.12.1944)
0) Obermaschinenmaat Horst Görlich (executed 30.12.1944)
0) Obergefreiter Norbert Pollack (executed 30.12.1944)
0) Obergefreiter Rolf Benjamin Meyer (executed 30.12.1944)
0) Obergefreiter Hans Wittsack (executed 30.12.1944)


31-12-1944 trial

1) Gefreiter Otto Struller (executed 13.01.1945)
2) Obergefreiter Rolf Jesch
2) Unteroffizier Heinz Pipitz
1) Gefreiter Alfred Franz
1) Obergefreiter Antoni J. Morzack
2) Gefreiter Karl Müller

1 = executed 2 = acquittal 0 = unknown


other names

Günther Ohletz
Stefan Kotas
Josef Wende
Hubert Albrecht
Hubert Rawe
Erwin Brian (sentence for life)
Josef Müller (sentence for life)
Günther Schulz
Curt Bruns
Richard Jakszyk/Jarczyk (executed 28.04.1945)

Burried in Lommel(Belgium)-exception Billing,Schmidt,Pernass (Henri-Chapelle)




Source:

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=[ ... N%26um%3D1[/url]
and

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/wbb ... 25f2618c02


Are there more information about the men (birth date and place)

other information:from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Greif
Pernass, Billing, and Schmidt were given a military trial at Henri-Chapelle, sentenced to death, and executed by a firing squad on 23 December. Thirteen other men were tried and shot at either Henri-Chapelle or Huy

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5142
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 18:51
Location: At home

Re: Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by ansata1976 » 10 Nov 2010 16:03

Nachname: Rawe
Vorname: Hubert
Dienstgrad: Gefreiter
Geburtsdatum: 26.03.1926
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 14.12.1944

Nachname: Ohletz
Vorname: Günter
Dienstgrad: Rottenführer
Geburtsdatum: 26.04.1924
Geburtsort: Oberhausen
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 07.10.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Seine Dep.

Nachname: Albrecht
Vorname: Hubert
Dienstgrad: Stabsfeldwebel
Geburtsdatum: 14.08.1911
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 14.12.1944

Nachname: Schulz
Vorname: Günther
Dienstgrad: Grenadier
Geburtsdatum: 13.12.1926
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 24.12.1944

Were this men executed or were the KIA??????

JKernwerk
Member
Posts: 1338
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 17:43

Re: Skorzeny "Operation Greif" query

Post by JKernwerk » 28 Aug 2019 23:52

Pernass, Billing and Schmidt are now burried at Lommel.
By the way, how is Ohletz supposed to do his job while he is dead or missing at 07-10-44.
Wiesenfeld and Miegel are not at the Gräbersuche-Online.
So where are these burried?
Greetings Jack

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”