Poland 1939: KIA German officers

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Peter K
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 11 Aug 2009 19:32

Ok - so he was probably only wounded.

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 11 Aug 2009 20:20

Nice! - so we finally have got a German fighter ace KIA during the Polish Campaign.

And - what's astonishing - he is probably not mentioned by Marius Emmerling. Am I right?

Yes, fighter ace in the sense of Zerstörer ace. Probably the Me109 fighters of the time and a number of experts today would say No..; the Lw by far has to much distinctions IMO and I make no final call here. :)
For sure there are many interesting stories and fates to find behind the pure names of the list. And important things still relevant today. But Schleif indeed should be a kind of "prominent" and remarkable case in the rows of the Luftwaffe.

We hadn't mentioned him here in the thread, not in generel and not in the context of Emmerling.
But, Peter, please take a look here and tell us what's said there and eventually add to the data line !
http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:jk-1n8kSbvwJ:www.odkrywca-online.com/search/index.php%3Fsq%3Dgunner+Fritz+Schleif+%2BBf+110&cd=8&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de
-> here is the respective passage (..long thread) :
Data: 2007-03-11 19:32:00
Treść: W dniu 07.09.39 Luftwaffe stracila jednego Bf 110. Byla to maszyna Bf 110-C z LG1 kolo Myszyniec Pilot Hptm. Fritz Schleif KIA Gunner Uffz. Emil Gaupp KIA Observer Uffz. Hermann Drees KIA Ale to nie ta maszyna, z która Jana Maliński walczyl. Malińskiego 110-tka zostala uszkodzona. Malinski podobnie zostal zestrzelony 6 wrzesnia z rana(Emmerling).


/ Bernd

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crolick
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by crolick » 11 Aug 2009 20:46

According to Emmerling (part I, p. 104) Hptm Fritz Schleif was hit by Polish AA on 7 IX near Małkinia. The plane was damaged but was able to fly and steered north trying to reach the base. Though near Myszyniec the plane lost her left engine and hit the ground killing both pilot and gunner (Uffz. Franz Haupp).

More or less is the same in the topic on Odkrywca though there are different crewmembers names given.


PS.
Schleif is NOT listed on Tony's Wood ace list - http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm
Last edited by crolick on 11 Aug 2009 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

Njorl
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Njorl » 11 Aug 2009 20:47

Domen121 wrote:Nice! - so we finally have got a German fighter ace KIA during the Polish Campaign.

And - what's astonishing - he is probably not mentioned by Marius Emmerling. Am I right?

Nope, it appears that I missed him, sorry.

According to vol. 1 of Luftwaffe nad Polską Hauptmann Schleifs Bf 110C was hit near Małkinia-Górna and crashed not far from Myszyniec while returning to base. There are some dicrepancies between Emmerling and Weal though:
- Myszyniec is way to the north from Dęblin, near Ostrołęka,
- according to Emmerling Hptm. Schleif was Staffelkapitän of 2. Staffel from I.(Z)/LG 1.
Also during this unfortunate flight he was a Gruppekomandeur.

Regards,
MJU

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 11 Aug 2009 20:57

Ok, thanks dear colleagues !
So, I add another piece and we let do Jürgen his job to merge this into the best possible and correct data line. :)

Yes, no ace.., the "5" standard is accepted I think. And finally I throw in another good list, where Schleif is listed with 3 downings : http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww2-1939.pdf
This is based on the well-known and often cited 1.-28. 9. 39 OKL compilation. The unit provided there is 2./LG 1, too ! So, from my point of view, let's regard Osprey as overruled. (?)

/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 11 Aug 2009 22:01

Yes, no ace.., the "5" standard is accepted I think.


I don't remember the exact term / definition, but those with 3 and 4 victories are considered "semi-aces" or something like that. But I won't tell you now where I read about it - all I remember is that it was somewhere in the net.

The "5" standard is indeed usually (not always) accepted as for "full aces", however.

Btw:

I thought that he had some more victories from the Spanish Civil War (as you wrote that he was yet famous in 1939):

Bernd R wrote:Schleif was a famous pilot before the war already.


/ Peter

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 12 Aug 2009 09:30

Peter, I didn't find a service with Legion Condor (this might be possible). Another spot found was that he was the winner of the Alpenrundflug 1937 :
Klasse c, Dreierpatrouillen, gewann schließlich die Bf-109-Kette mit Hauptmann Werner Restemeier, Oblt. Fritz Schleif und Oblt. Hannes Trautloft

/ Bernd

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 12 Aug 2009 20:21

The merging of 3.3 and 3.4 is in progress. A short question. This man - from the last series by Peter - is one and the same person IMO. The VB database has a number of these double entries (one incomplete/one ok). It is about the counting and primarily about the sense of listing him twice.
Heinemann Otto Adolf Philipp Heinrich, 11.08.1912, Oblt., -, -, 31.08.1939, VB
Heinemann Otto, ??.??.1912, Oblt. -, -, 31.08.1939, VB


Of note/informational : another potential source for the next level / in-depth research could be this huge project :
http://home.foni.net/~adelsforschung2/anzeig04.htm
A bibliography of printed/published obituary notices of the nobility 1912-2009. This aspect is of importance e.g. (!)
...so daß sich also über die hier ermittelten Anzeigen oft Todesdaten und Verwandtschaften ermitteln lassen, die an keiner anderen Stelle gedruckt erschienen sind...

So, this is
1) a start for further research

and 2) the name catalogue only is a good re-check tool for the accuracy of names (family knows best and the list should be quite precise I think) :
Example : we had the case of Köckritz/Köckeritz
-> Köckritz, Werner v., Oberleutnant aus Breslau

/ Bernd

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 13 Aug 2009 15:23

After the merging with 3.4 and a few additions the revised section 3.3 is ready. Total : (85) - in research, total : (107) .

/ Bernd

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 13 Aug 2009 19:30

Bernd R wrote: [...]
and a RAD Oberfeldmeister -equivalent to Oberleutnant. This is another category, along with the Zahlmeister, Sonderführer and Polizei. Open to discussion and choice as always. In the meantime my thoughts have developed as follows : they had so-called "Kombattantenstatus" (uniform, weapons, open, etc.). This would basically fit for a listing. Eventually it is a step forward to include them in the overall list and the "count" and to denote and highlight them in a separate passage. (?) On the other hand - if a kind of summary and statistics will be done later about branches, ranks, etc. they could appear there in any way, so, the more detailed info would be available. Open to better ideas and the handling by Jürgen.
Nachname: Oberegger-Kniendl
Vorname: Josef
Dienstgrad: Oberfeldmeister
Geburtsdatum: 26.01.1909
Geburtsort: Radegrund
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 11.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Rabka


The above older post and this new person from my extra list...

Nachname: Papetz
Vorname: Marcelus
Dienstgrad: Oberfeldmeister
Geburtsdatum: 28.06.1908
Geburtsort: Wien
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 05.12.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Feldlaz.4/522 Jaroslaw/Polen

Marcelus Papetz konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden.
Die vorgesehene Überführung zum Sammelfriedhof in Siemianowice - Sammelfriedhof (Polen) war somit leider nicht möglich.
Sein Name wird im Gedenkbuch des Friedhofes verzeichnet.


...denote the only two RAD men with ranks equivalent to officers I'm aware of. As we are on a revision and a re-structuring the question is wether to leave them out. Your choice Jürgen. In a book I would just include a small chapter on those (and other/similar cases perhaps).

Of note : it is always interesting to look through lists of so-called "auszusondernde Literatur" to eventually find literature of the time ; so here where I found -> http://www.polunbi.de/bibliothek/1946-nslit-m.html , listing :
Mit Spaten und Waffe in Feindesland. Reichsarbeitsdienst u. s. Bautruppen im Feldzug in Polen 1939. Hrsg. v. Martin B. Eisenbeck. — Leipzig: Der nationale Aufbau 1940.
which eventually has reports about the two men above. (incl. propaganda and style of writing those works, etc.).

/ Bernd

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 14 Aug 2009 18:22

Here are the remaining locations per VB not yet added. I couldn't determine a unit of one of the officers in the - Z - section at the moment.
Zickermann Dietrich, 07.11.1914, Oblt., -, -, 19.09.1939 (Grabowica), VB
von Zimmermann Ehrenfried, 10.03.1913, Hptm., -, -, 12.09.1939 (Popowek-Glowno), VB
Zühlke Heinz, 25.09.1916, Oblt., -, -, 09.09.1939 (Bronina), VB
Zwitzers Hans, 19.08.1912, Lt., 7./I. R. 311, [217. Div.], 25.09.1939 (VB: 24.09.1939 [Brzeziny-Stare-Brodno]), VB, H. Gru. Nord


/ Bernd

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Bernd R » 14 Aug 2009 18:48

Casualties of 31. ID ; this division is not yet listed on the preliminary list on page 49 :
http://www.garnison.de/bd4.pdf = Werner Hartmann, Zur Geschichte der Garnison Halberstadt und ihrer Truppenteile 1623 - 1994, 4. Band (1918-1945), 2000 , page 34,
reports the following div. casualties up to 21.09.1939 (Meldung) - per Regimentsgeschichte IR 12 - :

KIA : 3 Offz , 98 Uffz und Msch
WIA : 4 Offz , 135 Uffz und Msch
MIA : 1 Offz , 148 Uffz und Msch

We have listed 4 officers of this division. All conclusions possible, but it looks like that we havn't missed one at least.
- two locations added, marked blue, for completion -

Müller Lothar, 21.09.1909, Hptm., Kdr. 14. (PzAbw) Kp./I. R. 12, 31. Div, 19.09.1939 (bei Polesie ), VB, Das Infanterieregiment 12
Schrader Johann, 15.06.1914, Lt. d. R., 9./I. R. 12, 31. Div., 18.09.1939 (Gorki), VB, Das Infanterieregiment 12
Speer Erwin, 14.12.1895, Obstlt., [Kdr. II. Abt./I. R. 12], [31. Div.], 18.09.1939 (Gorki), VB, StB 1938
von Stamford Hans, 27.10.1893, Maj., [Kdr. I. Abt./A. R. 31], [31. Div.], 18.09.1939 (i.Pusza Wald nördl.Gorki ), VB, StB 1938


/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by chris44 » 14 Aug 2009 19:11

found this
possible its known already

there is one officer KIA on the plate

(source on the picture)
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Peter K
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by Peter K » 14 Aug 2009 19:32

Excellent! Thanks Chris!

But - hmm - Panzer-Lehr-Regt.?

I always thought that there was a Panzer-Lehr-Abt. fighting in Poland (with 753 soldiers + 73 tanks in its ranks).

But there was also Aufklarungs-Lehr-Abt. with also 753 soldiers and 56 AFVs - were they parts of the same Regt.?Pz.Lehr.Abt. was attached to XIX. AK and Aufk.Lehr.Abt. to III. AK - but they could be part of the same regiment, which didn't form an entirety but fought divided (or maybe formed one regiment only before the war?).

If it comes to this Oberleutnant Hoffmann - it seems that we don't (yes - don't!) have him listed. We have got one Oberleutnant Hofmann (one f) from Pz.Rgt.5 (not Panzer Lehr) listed as KIA on 18.09.1939.

It seems that it is not the same person - do you know when exactly this Hoffmann was KIA, Chris?

PS:

Heavy casualties (as for elite unit with best equipment) - 18 KIA + est. 36 WIA = 54 men lost out of 239 (= 22,6 %).

Bernd R wrote:Casualties of 31. ID ; this division is not yet listed on the preliminary list on page 49 :
http://www.garnison.de/bd4.pdf = Werner Hartmann, Zur Geschichte der Garnison Halberstadt und ihrer Truppenteile 1623 - 1994, 4. Band (1918-1945), 2000 , page 34,
reports the following div. casualties up to 21.09.1939 (Meldung) - per Regimentsgeschichte IR 12 - :

KIA : 3 Offz , 98 Uffz und Msch
WIA : 4 Offz , 135 Uffz und Msch
MIA : 1 Offz , 148 Uffz und Msch

We have listed 4 officers of this division. All conclusions possible, but it looks like that we havn't missed one at least.
- two locations added, marked blue, for completion -

Müller Lothar, 21.09.1909, Hptm., Kdr. 14. (PzAbw) Kp./I. R. 12, 31. Div, 19.09.1939 (bei Polesie ), VB, Das Infanterieregiment 12
Schrader Johann, 15.06.1914, Lt. d. R., 9./I. R. 12, 31. Div., 18.09.1939 (Gorki), VB, Das Infanterieregiment 12
Speer Erwin, 14.12.1895, Obstlt., [Kdr. II. Abt./I. R. 12], [31. Div.], 18.09.1939 (Gorki), VB, StB 1938
von Stamford Hans, 27.10.1893, Maj., [Kdr. I. Abt./A. R. 31], [31. Div.], 18.09.1939 (i.Pusza Wald nördl.Gorki ), VB, StB 1938


/ Bernd


Excellent info Bernd!

I missed casualties of this division!

One note should be added - this division was involved in heavy combats in Warsaw (attacking in the area Wlochy - Okecie - Fort Sczesliwice - Czyste - Ochota) between 23 and 27 IX so these aren't complete casualties of the divison.

But what do you think about adding casualties of this division (up to 21.09.1939) to the preliminary list on page 49?
+ info that "Uber die Verluste liegen keine verlasslichen Nachrichten vor." (apart from this report of Inf.Rgt.12).

The four officers (including the missing one - converted to KIA later) - are most certainly the same as those who are already listed in our Master List. The high number of MIA may result from the fact that I.R.12 was overran in Puszcza Kampinoska and most of the dead couldn't be reported as KIA at first. But low number of WIA is quite strange - it seems that the report is not complete at this point. It's a pity that there is no any exact breakdown of casualties of this division. There is a possibility that these numbers refer only to casualties of Inf.Rgt.12 + attached units.

All of the officers from this division listed in our Master List (4) were killed precisely in Puszcza Kampinoska! Only one regiment (Inf.Rgt.12) from this division - plus some attached units - fought there. The report is from Inf.Rgt.12 too.

/ Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

Post by chris44 » 14 Aug 2009 21:09

Hi Peter!

to be honest....
I just found only one info for the Panzer-Lehr-Regiment
for this timeperiod

soure:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... iBat42.htm


Um 4:10 Uhr setzt die 3. Panzer-Division das Übergehen mit dem Schützen-Regiment 3, Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 39, Instandsetzungstrupp des Flak-Lehr-Regiments, Pionier-Bataillon 39, Artillerie-Regiment 75 und der Panzer-Abwehr-Abteilung 2 der 2. Infanterie-Division. Von 8:30 Uhr wird das Übergehen unterbrochen um notwendige Arbeiten an der Brückendecke auszuführen. Auch muß die Brücke durch Verziehen von 3 Gliedern wieder ausgerichtet werden. Das Wetter ist die ganze Zeit schön und warm. Um 10:45 ist die Brücke wieder freigegeben. Ab 14:15 Uhr folgen die Panzer-Regimenter 5 und 6, sowie das Panzer-Lehr-Regiment.

The Oberleutnant Hoffmann on the plate should be the "already mentioned" Eberhard Hofmann with one f
in this thread with Pz.Rgt.5

Nachname: Hoffmann
Vorname: Eberhard
Dienstgrad: Oberleutnant
Geburtsdatum: 04.01.1914
Geburtsort: Berlin-Tempelhof
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 18.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: b.Lowcza

Eberhard Hoffmann ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Mlawka (Polen) .
Endgrablage: Block E Grab 56

but its just an idea.........

chris

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