? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

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ljadw
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 28 Oct 2009 19:07

Quist,thank you for your answer

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 28 Oct 2009 19:08

Michate,thank you much

Art
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Art » 29 Oct 2009 14:42

Qvist wrote: The source is RW6/535, a Wehrmacht Verlustwesen file. And this is a bit of a mystery. This is the only source I have ever come across that give such figures for this period.
A small question: the only source with a summary table or the only sources on the list strength of armies at all?

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 29 Oct 2009 15:29

May be of topic ,but I do not want to start a new topic :is there any information about German NCL in the East for 1942 and 1944 ? I have only those for 1941 (by courtesy of Hero :) TYVM )and for 1943 .

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Qvist
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Qvist » 02 Nov 2009 12:45

Hi Art,
Art wrote:
Qvist wrote: The source is RW6/535, a Wehrmacht Verlustwesen file. And this is a bit of a mystery. This is the only source I have ever come across that give such figures for this period.
A small question: the only source with a summary table or the only sources on the list strength of armies at all?
Both. You come across figures for Ration strength or combat strength from the armies, but off the top of my head I do not think I have seen any Iststärke figures from this period.

Paul, sorry for delay - have not had much time the last days. It will come.

cheers

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Paul_Atreides » 02 Nov 2009 19:31

Qvist wrote:Paul, sorry for delay - have not had much time the last days. It will come.
Everything is alright :) I'll be waiting.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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Qvist
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Qvist » 03 Nov 2009 23:32

Right, here goes. Hope the format works.

AOK June 1941
2 23213
4 490989
6 378919
9 382273
11 172208
16 225481
17 284784
18 184249
Pz 1 158466
Pz 2 181752
Pz 3 130657
Pz 4 152285
2,765,276

Especially tricky, this. Is it based on the average of all three Dekaden (ten-day periods) in June, or just the last? The distribution by army is problematical in several cases, but the combined total for each Army Group ought to be OK.

Oktober 1941 (same order of armies)

117940
313548
195787
246782
146067
310433
182338
213831
149172
202446
113005
189998
2381337

These might be partly questionable - October through February, the figures are marked "preliminary". The total seems a bit low.

July 1942

2 280482
4 169026
6 317896
9 249807
11 164648
16 219231
17 135504
18 306517
Pz 1 226688
Pz 2 252995
Pz 3 120774
Pz 4 85643
LIX AK
XXIX AK
XXIV PzK
TOTAL 2514238

Plausible figures, in my opinion.

November

2 211610
4 149402
6 55394
9 307945
11
16 167617
17 173888
18 334032
Pz 1 161357
Pz 2 242079
Pz 3 157749
Pz 4 8520
LIX AK 55324
XXIX AK 25601
XXIV PzK 25590
TOTAL 2076108

Note - 6th Army includes only the forces outside the Stalingrad pocket, so about 230,000 men should be added there. This is also basically plausible figures in my opinion. Strength roughly similar to May. The 42 figures fit the rhytm implied by the balance between losses and replacements/reinforcements - peak in August, then decline.

Overall totals:

0641 2,765,276
0741 2650626
0841 2579879
0941 2539110
1041 2381337
1141 2362463
1241 2112002
0142 1981356
0242 2044692

0342 2130239
0442 2240876
0542 2324717
0642 2450929
0742 2514238
0842 2573930
0942 2472681
1042 2410975
1142 2306108 (with Stalingrad adjustment)

Months marked "Vorläufige Zahlen" bolded. The November figures have a better fit with other indicators than the rest of them.

cheers

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by H@wkeye! » 04 Nov 2009 00:01

wow, detailed!

Just looking through these posts out of curiosity, and now i'm going to use them in my thesis :p Think i'll graph those figures to demonstrate the attrition levels of the first months of the campaign and the winter crisis. Not 100% relevant to my research, but close to - anyone stats for damaged/destroyed tanks, artillery and the like, as i'm working out whether the Gm production front had the capacity to replace battle loses?

Anywho keep up the good work

Hawk

/out

ljadw
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2009 01:36

tank losses for 22 -06 till 31 -12 -41
PzI 341
PzII 398
PzIII 637
Pz 38 III (t ) 721
Pz IV 330
SG 101
Bef.Pz 78

ljadw
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2009 01:58

production in 3th quarter : Pz 2 :71
Pz 3:484
38 II (t) :2O5
IV :128
SG :122
Bef.Pz :13

4th quarter :113
541
153
164
163
18

H@wkeye!
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by H@wkeye! » 04 Nov 2009 02:18

Ah interesting, so they actually had more tanks then before, well except for the light tanks, 38 II (t). These stats, are they tanks that are write off's or damaged units, and then returned, so they appear in both sheets? Also, what's your source, as this is all going to go in an honours thesis, (sort of a mini PhD thesis - so students can learn if they want to go for the big one... - think it's uniquely australian) and nothing un-referenced can really go in.

Cheers

Hawk

/out

ljadw
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2009 06:47

H@wkeye! wrote:Ah interesting, so they actually had more tanks then before, well except for the light tanks, 38 II (t). These stats, are they tanks that are write off's or damaged units, and then returned, so they appear in both sheets? Also, what's your source, as this is all going to go in an honours thesis, (sort of a mini PhD thesis - so students can learn if they want to go for the big one... - think it's uniquely australian) and nothing un-referenced can really go in.

Cheers

Hawk

/out
Sorry,forgot the source:Va Banque by Schustereit ;his figures are coming from BA-MA,III W 805/5-7.
I don't know if they are only write-off's,Schustereit is using the term Abgang .
For the first two months,the figures are not complete,there were none for the 2nd and 4th 10 -days period .
I will also give the Zugang figures :the numbers received by the Ostheer:there was a big difference with the production .
For the 3th quarter
Pz II 6
Pz III 51
38 III(t) 36
Pz IV 17
S G 4
Bef Pz 2
For the 3th Quarter
Pz II 17
Pz III 226
38 III (t) 72
Pz IV 63
SG 8
Pz Bef 5
For the artillery :there are only figures for losses,nothing about replacements .

Michate
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Michate » 04 Nov 2009 08:12

The figures by Schustereit for Abgänge refers to tanks written off plus those added that are not repairable within 5 days.

Qvist, as to the figures in late 1942, there is a bit of a mystery, as some global Iststärke figures for October and Nopvember 1942 are actually higher than the figures for summer 1942.

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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Qvist » 04 Nov 2009 10:39

Yes, the FHO figures quoted in DRZW 5/2. But the thing is that there is no way to account for a growth in the strength of the Field commands during that period. The Abgänge were much higher than the replacements, and there were no new divisions going to the East. The only possible explanation I can think of other than the report simply being wrong is that it takes account of the movement of much Ersatzheer personnell to the east, as the Feldersatzdivisione were being formed around this time. Which of course did nothing to improve the strength or condition of the field commands.

The FHO report is in general extremely strange. Not only does it start from 3.3 million (hence including all the OKH reserves that were actually deployed over several months) and hence gives a quite misleading impression of strength development in 1941, it shows a gradually declining strength until August 1942, and then a rise until October - which as far as 1942 is concerned is almost precisely the opposite of the trend shown by other figures and also supported by the general balance between Abgänge and force additions. How, for instance, could strength possibly drop in April compared to March, in a month with very low casualties, record-level replacements and a flow of new divisions? It doesn't make any sense. It's not exactly confidence-inspiring either that the strength drops in a straight line, by exactly 100,000 every month. I'm more than a little inclined to suspect this is a report based on estimate, and a poor estimate at that.

cheers

Paul_Atreides
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Re: ? about the German Army on the East prior Barbarossa

Post by Paul_Atreides » 04 Nov 2009 20:48

Qvist wrote:Right, here goes. Hope the format works.
Oh, very big thanks!
LIX AK
XXIX AK
XXIV PzK
TOTAL 2514238
My total in Excel - 2 529 211
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of German Army in World Wars)

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