REAL DIESEL VANS!

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 4753
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

REAL DIESEL VANS!

Postby Scott Smith » 26 Apr 2002 11:05

It is no surprise how in the minds of witnesses, ordinary decontamination and delousing vehicles could have been mistaken for mass-murder machines.
8O

Below are examples of the Einheits-Diesel or "standardized diesel" commonly used by the German Army during WWII, which was patterned on the Henschel 33G1 six-wheel chassis and built by many contractors in the thousands.
8)

Photos: John Milsom, German Military Transport in WWII. Hippocrene Books, NY: 1975; PP. 142-145.

U.S. War Department, TM-E 3-451; 15 March 1945. Handbook on German Military Forces. Louisiana Univ. Press, 1995; pp. 522-523.

Here are two examples of the Kfz92b, which was a 9-ton decontamination van "capable of bathing 150 men per hour," according the the U.S. War Department in 1945:

Image

Bottom Photo, another Henschel 33G1 Einheits-Diesel Kfz92b:

Image

And here is a real gas-van! Bottom Photo, a 9.7 ton clothing-decontamination truck, Henschel 33G1 Einheits-Diesel Kfz93:

Image
Last edited by Scott Smith on 26 Apr 2002 12:58, edited 1 time in total.

Pumpkin
Member
Posts: 203
Joined: 19 Apr 2002 14:38
Location: Stockholm

Postby Pumpkin » 26 Apr 2002 11:14

So, these vehicles where mobile water and soap showers?

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 4753
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

KRAFTFAHRZEUG SHOWER and DELOUSING VANS...

Postby Scott Smith » 26 Apr 2002 12:13

Pumpkin wrote:So, these vehicles were mobile water and soap showers?

Yes, the Kfz92b was a shower-van and the Kfz93 was a delousing/laundry van, which used either steam or poison gas to kill lice and their nits (eggs) in clothing.
:)

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Postby Ovidius » 26 Apr 2002 12:38

What common people seem to forget is that the Zyklon B was maybe the most efficient bug-spray of its time, and even further. A drum of this matter was enough to kill any kind of bug/louse/whatever vermin in an entire Army barrack.

The same poison allowed that the clothing confiscated from Jews and others to be distributed to German homeless victims of bombings, because after an exposure to Zyklon B, the textiles were free from any kind of bug or germ.

Plus, the Germans had water-decontamination mobile machines mounted on trucks, used by the military personnel for the drinking water.

~Ovidius

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 4753
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

DECONTAMINATION TRUCKS...

Postby Scott Smith » 26 Apr 2002 12:45

Ovidius wrote:Plus, the Germans had water-decontamination mobile machines mounted on trucks, used by the military personnel for the drinking water.

Excellent point, Ovidius. Gerstein claimed to have helped design or surpervise this process.
:)

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Postby Ovidius » 26 Apr 2002 13:11

In the movie Amen(which I think none around has cared to watch), character Gerstein is hinted as the inventor of the water-decontamination mobile machine.

~Ovidius

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4372
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Postby Roberto » 26 Apr 2002 13:52

Henschel here, Henschel there, followed by the Reverend's wishful thinking.

Where are the Saurer and Diamond trucks converted into gas vans by Gaubschat that are mentioned in the documentary evidence and eyewitness testimonials?

Where are the Renault trucks with Otto engines mentioned by Chelmno gas van driver Walter Burmeister in his deposition before the Bonn County Court withing the scope of the 1962/63 trial againt the members of the Sonderkommando Lange?

Where are the gas vans with gasoline engines described by witnesses Levinbuck and Piller?

Testimonial of Zalman Levinbuck, survivor of the Baranovice ghetto (Baranovice Memorial Book, Tel Aviv, pages 562 and following; quoted in Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, page 91):

Unter den Lastwagen gibt es riesige mit hermetisch verschließbaren Türen … Diese luftdicht geschlossenen Wagen werden ‘dushegubky’ genannt, was auf russisch ‘Seelentöter’ heißt. Sie bringen bereits tote Menschen heran, die man nicht mehr erschießen muß. Die Menschen werden unterwegs vergiftet durch Gase und Abgasdämpfe, die durch das Verbrennen von Benzin im Motor entstanden sind. Denn diese Abgase werden durch ein spezielles Rohr ins Wageninnere geleitet, anstatt, wie normalerweise, frei an die Luft zu entweichen; und so werden die Menschen durch das Kohlenmonoxyd getötet.


My translation:

Among the trucks there were giant one with doors that closed hermetically.... These hermetically closed vans are called ‘dushegubky’, which in Russian means ‘soul killer’. They already bring along dead people who don’t have to be shot anymore. The people are poisoned during the drive by gases and exhaust fumes that are created by the combustion of gasoline in the motor. This because the exhaust is led through a special valve into the inside of the van instead of freely vanishing into the air as it normally would, and thus the people are killed by the carbon monoxide.


From the deposition of Chelmo gas van driver Walter Burmeister at the trial before the Bonn County Court against the members of Sonderkommando Lange (StA Bonn AZ: 8 Js 52/60 (AZ. ZSL 203 AR-Z 69/59, Volume I, pages 138-141, quoted in Kogon Langbein/Rückerl et al, as above, page 114):

[…]Die Wagen waren mittelschwere Renault-Lastwagen mit Ottomotor. Sie ließen sich schlecht fahren, weil sie nicht einen so großen Wendekreis hatten. Der zeitweise hinzugekommene dritte Wagen war wohl ein schwerer. Die Wagen hatten Kastenaufbau mit einer großen Zweiflügeltür an der Rückseite, ähnlich wie Möbelwagen.[…]


My translation:

[...]The vans were medium size Renault trucks with Otto engines. They were hard to drive because they didn’t have so big a turning circle. The temporarily added third van must have been a heavy one. The vans had a box-like buildup with a big two-wing door at the back side, similar to furniture vans.[...]


From a report written by in Soviet captivity by SS-Hauptscharführer Walter Piller, former member of the Chelmno staff (ZSL Volume 411, Part VII, pages 16 and following, quoted in Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, page 141):

[...]Während der Fahrt wurde durch den Kraftfahrer Laabs ein Ventil geöffnet, durch welches Gas einströmte, welches die Insassen in 2-3 Minuten tötete. Hierbei handelte es sich um Gase, die durch den Benzinmotor erzeugt wurden.[...]


My translation:

[...]During the drive the driver Laabs opened a valve, through which gas streamed in, which killed those inside within 2-3 minutes. These were gases that had been created by the gasoline motor.[...]


What follows is a complete translation of Dr. Becker's letter to Rauff of 16 May 1942, transcribed under

http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ ... auff.shtml

The translation is my own, though I have used the partial translation featured under

http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ ... auff.shtml

Feldpostnummer 32 704
Kiev, 16 May 1942
B. Nr. 40/42 -

Secret Reich Matter

To
SS-Obersturmbannführer Rauff
in Berlin
Prinz-Albrecht-Str. 8

The overhauling of the vans of Groups D and C is concluded. While the vans of the first series can also be used when the weather is not all too bad, the vans of the second series (Saurer) are completely immobilized in rainy weather. This because if it has been raining for only half an hour the van cannot be operated because it simply slips away. It can only be used in good weather. The question now arises if the van can only be used at the place of execution standing. The van must first be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. The place of execution, however, is located at least 10-15 km away from the traffic routes and is already difficult to access due to its location; in bad weather it is inaccessible altogether. If those to be executed are led or driven to this place, they notice immediately what is going on and become restless, which should be avoided. The only remaining possibility is to load them in at the place of assembly and then to drive them out.

I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as house trailers by putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and two on each side of the large vans, such as one often sees on farm houses in the country. The vans became so well known that not only the authorities but also the civilian population called the van "death van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even camouflaged.

The Saurer van that I transferred from Simferopol to Taganrog had a brake damage on the way. At the S.K. [Spezialkommando = special unit] in Mariupol it was verified that the flange [Manchete] of the combined oil and compressed air brake was broken in several places. Through persuasion and bribe at the H. K. P. it was possible to have turned a form after which two flanges were forged. When I came to Stalino and Gorlovka a few days later, the drivers of the vans complained about the same damage. After consulting the commanders of these special units I went again to Mariupol in order to have further flanges for these vans manufactured. It was agreed to forge two flanges for each of these vans, while 6 flanges remained as a reserve in Mariupol for the Group, and 6 flanges were sent to SS-Untersturmführer Ernst for the vans of Group C to Kiev. For the groups B and A the flanges could be obtained from Berlin, because the transport from Mariupol to the north is still too cumbersome and would last too long. Smaller damages on the vans are repaired by technicians of the special units or groups or in a workshop.

Due to the uneven terrain and the hard to describe road conditions the sealing and rivet places loosen after some time. I was asked if in such cases the vans can be sent to Berlin for repair. Such a transfer would be much too expensive and cost too much fuel. To save this expense I gave the instruction to rivet smaller leaking parts on site and, if this was no longer possible, to immediately inform Berlin by radio that van Pol. No. …. had broken down.
Besides that, I ordered that during application of gas all the men were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention of the special units concerned the immense psychological injuries and damages involved to their health that this work can have for those men, even if not immediately, at least later on. The men complained to me about headaches, which appeared after each unloading. Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are afraid prisoners called for that work could use an opportune moment to flee. To protect the men from these damages, I request orders to be issued accordingly.

The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions have now proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer noticed.

In the course of this day I will travel on to Group B, where further news may reach me.

Dr. Becker
SS-Untersturmführer


Incidentally, the existence of "real diesel vans" may explain why some witnesses erroneously thought that the gas vans they described had diesel instead of gasoline engines, or why some investigators erroneously reached this conclusion. Assuming that they were necessarily in error, that is, which Smith hasn't demonstrated so far.
Last edited by Roberto on 07 May 2003 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 4753
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

ANOTHER REAL GAS-VAN!

Postby Scott Smith » 26 Apr 2002 14:40

Hi Roberto,

I'm still gathering data on different vehicles, such as Diamond-Diesels. Saurers are always diesels, btw.

Here's a Saurer moving van:

Image

Here's a Saurer truck with a Holzgas conversion. It is a diesel which has been converted to run on wood-gas. All petrol vehicles except tactical vehicles and some diesels were converted to Holzgas during the war.

Image

And here's another Saurer diesel with Holzgas:

Image

I imagine that accidental CO poisonings were quite common with Holzgas conversions, hence the gas-van or murder-van legend.
:wink:

Dan
Financial supporter
Posts: 3323
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Postby Dan » 26 Apr 2002 15:06

Scott, I plan on getting a scanner soon, then I can post a picture of one of those vans with ZYKLON stenciled on in big white letters. Failing that, perhaps I'll mail it to you.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4372
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: ANOTHER REAL GAS-VAN!

Postby Roberto » 26 Apr 2002 15:28

Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

I'm still gathering data on different vehicles, such as Diamond-Diesels.


Why, so there were also Diamond gasoline trucks? Interesting.

Saurers are always diesels, btw.


Unless custom-built with gasoline engines or accordingly converted by Gaubschat, which as Ovidius explained would have made all the sense in the world for use in the cold weather on the Eastern Front.

Here's a Saurer truck with a Holzgas conversion. It is a diesel which has been converted to run on wood-gas. All petrol vehicles except tactical vehicles and some diesels were converted to Holzgas during the war.


With the possible exception of special purpose vehicles such as the gas vans, which would have been left as they were if running on petrol or converted to petrol if running on diesel - assuming that there was really a problem with the gassing-effectiveness of diesel exhaust, that is.

I imagine that accidental CO poisonings were quite common with Holzgas conversions, hence the gas-van or murder-van legend.


If so, then where do all those depositions of eyewitnesses and defendants and the very telling and detailed documentary evidence come from, Reverend? All lies (though remarkably coherent, coincident and, in the case of the defendants, self-incriminating) and forgeries (although there is no indication of any manipulation), Reverend? Wake up, my friend. The risks associated to the use of producer gas vans may actually explain why the killers preferred to use vans and later stationary chambers with engines, as your Uncle Freddy had the unintended kindness of letting us know.
Last edited by Roberto on 07 May 2003 15:18, edited 1 time in total.

Xanthro
Member
Posts: 595
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 00:11
Location: Pasadena, CA

Re: REAL DIESEL VANS!

Postby Xanthro » 26 Apr 2002 20:49

Scott Smith wrote:It is no surprise how in the minds of witnesses, ordinary decontamination and delousing vehicles could have been mistaken for mass-murder machines.


Simply presenting pictures of trucks does not back up your thesis that there were no vehicles used for homocidal purposes.

It's a childish argument at best. It would be like Robert Blake arguing he could prove he didn't kill his wife by showing he owned a gun that wasn't used to kill her. "Look your Honor, this gun wasn't used to kill Bonnie, I'm innocent!" It's laughable.

I imagine that accidental CO poisonings were quite common with Holzgas conversions, hence the gas-van or murder-van legend.


If you want to prove something is a legend or myth, then you need evidence. Since numerous people have confessed to killing people in the vans, since numerous documentary evidence exists substiating their existence, since numerous eye witnessesed have testified to seeing them used, your simple assertions hold no weight.

If people were to accept the Scott Smith standard of evidence and argumentation, no historical fact would be left standing. I can argue that any historical fact is a lie and conspiracy and that something else happened, especially when I argue that the conspiracy is so vast and perfect as to leave no trace of itself.

It's absurd.

Xanthro

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Re: ANOTHER REAL GAS-VAN!

Postby Ovidius » 26 Apr 2002 22:16

Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

I'm still gathering data on different vehicles, such as Diamond-Diesels. Saurers are always diesels, btw.


History of Saurer trucks(for those who can read German):

http://www.army-saurer.ch/History/chronik_frame.htm

~Regards,

Ovidius

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 4753
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Re: REAL DIESEL VANS!

Postby Scott Smith » 04 Jul 2003 07:13

Xanthro wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:It is no surprise how in the minds of witnesses, ordinary decontamination and delousing vehicles could have been mistaken for mass-murder machines.

Simply presenting pictures of trucks does not back up your thesis that there were no vehicles used for homocidal purposes.

I'm not sure what "homocide" is since it's not in the dictionary.

It's a childish argument at best. It would be like Robert Blake arguing he could prove he didn't kill his wife by showing he owned a gun that wasn't used to kill her. "Look your Honor, this gun wasn't used to kill Bonnie, I'm innocent!" It's laughable.

Then how come in all those detective movies the homicide suspect is gruffly asked, "Where's your .38, buddy?" And the man stammers back, "But it's in my desk drawer, where I always keep it." And the coppers fetch it and proceed to sniff the barrel for residue.
:lol:

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 22747
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Postby David Thompson » 04 Jul 2003 07:35

Don't feel bad, Xanthro -- I've made the same spelling mistake as well.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Roberto
Member
Posts: 4372
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 15:35
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: REAL DIESEL VANS!

Postby Roberto » 04 Jul 2003 16:42

Scott Smith wrote:
Xanthro wrote:It's a childish argument at best. It would be like Robert Blake arguing he could prove he didn't kill his wife by showing he owned a gun that wasn't used to kill her. "Look your Honor, this gun wasn't used to kill Bonnie, I'm innocent!" It's laughable.

Then how come in all those detective movies the homicide suspect is gruffly asked, "Where's your .38, buddy?" And the man stammers back, "But it's in my desk drawer, where I always keep it." And the coppers fetch it and proceed to sniff the barrel for residue.
:lol:


Yep, that's what they do when the murder weapon provides hints about who did it, as I often explained. Nothing that criminal justice would have needed the murder weapons used by Nazi killing squads or at Nazi extermination camps for, as I've explained just as often. But then, who expects "Revisionist" true believers to be able to tell apples from oranges?


Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users