Ukrainian genocide

[Chinaski1917]

"PACE"

what's that?

[Marcus]

"PACE"

what's that?

I assume it is the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.

/Marcus

[Kajtmaz]

Jonah Goldberg

Now, part of what fascinates me is why anyone would think murdering people because of their economic status is somehow any less evil than murdering people because of their ethnicity.

I know what many of the whys are, and I think they reveal something profound about how different people see the world. In America and the West generally, vast numbers of leftist intellectuals forgave Stalin, Mao and others for murdering people who stood in the way of Progress — and historians continue to do so today.

Indeed, "modernization" was one of the great excuses and rationalizations for murder, theft and, yes, genocide in the 20th century and, I fear, people will be going back to this intellectual well for a good long time.

One last point:

If you are a Marxist you generally consider race, ethnicity and nationality to be mere epiphenomena, absurd and archaic categories of the Old Order, right? And, you believe that class is an enduring category of humanity, more "real" than mere ethnicity, right? So by your own definitions, isn't slaughtering a whole class of people a form of genocide or attempted genocide?

[Chinaski1917]

"Now, part of what fascinates me is why anyone would think murdering people because of their economic status is somehow any less evil than murdering people because of their ethnicity."

Well by your definition we could name genocides the American revolution , the French Revolution the Greek Revolution whatever one wants just as long there is killing or deaths involved.

[Kajtmaz]

...Well by your definition...

Where is my definition?

European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"

I agree.

[Sergey Romanov]

Jonah Goldberg, the unhinged history-distorting wingnut that he is, is slightly correct in this specific case. I'm not sure anyone explicitly said that such a murder is less evil, but it certainly is not enshrined in any "-cide" term. Not that it has to do with the left/right political divisions. Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.

PS: Of course, wingnut Goldberg doesn't cite any evidence that "vast numbers of leftist intellectuals forgave Stalin, Mao and others for murdering people who stood in the way of Progress — and historians continue to do so today". And of course genocide is not generally defined as killing any "whole class" of people, which is the whole point. It is also not clear why Goldberg is having a discussion with some abstract "Marxists". Unless, of course, anyone to the left of Attila the Hun is a Marxist for the Doughy Pantload.

[Chinaski1917]

"European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"

I agree."

Well I disagree and what do you know ? All serious HISTORIANS disagree too.

[Sergey Romanov]

European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"

Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force. The problem with this definition is it's so wobbly that quite a lot of interpretations fit it, including Robert Conquest's non-genocidal definition. Artificial? Well, yeah, to the extent that it was exacerbated by the state policy, it was artificial. A crime? Criminal negligence is a crime. I.e. nothing in the definition says "genocide".

The other problem with it is that it is one-sided. It was a crime against Ukrainian people, but not against Russian people, Kazakh people, Belorussian people? Are they famine-deniers when it comes to non-Ukrainian "parts" of the famine? If not, why they don't mention it?

Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.

[Kajtmaz]

and what do you know ?
All serious HISTORIANS disagree too.

good-bye

[Chinaski1917]

Sergey said it all, I have nothing to add . I agree 100%

[Kajtmaz]

Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.

Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force...Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.

I agree with first statement.

[Sergey Romanov]

Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.

Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force...Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.

I agree with first statement.

Because you took these quotes out of their immediate context, I need to clarify: the first quote applies to murder of people because of their economic status, not to any specific historical event.

Anyway, a question: do you agree with the "Harvest of Sorrow" author Robert Conquest that Stalin did not purposely inflict the 1933 famine?

[Sergey Romanov]

As a matter of general interest, here is the full PACE statement:

http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?link= ... ES1723.htm

[Kajtmaz]

...the "Harvest of Sorrow" author Robert Conquest that Stalin did not purposely inflict the 1933 famine?

Proof, please.



that isnt persuasive argument:

(Source: R.W.Davies, S.G.Wheatcroft, "Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932 - 33: A Reply to Ellman", Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4, June 2006, 625 - 633.)

I agree with Andrea Graziosi.

[Kajtmaz]

As a matter of general interest, here is the European Parliament resolution:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/get ... XML+V0//EN