Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 26 Jun 2010 17:58

It must be added that the Baltic Fleet possessed at least 2 "SB" type landing crafts (specially constructed self-propelled barges). Probably, Finnish intelligence for some reason confused them with allied-built LCT and that was the source of the report quoted above.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Jun 2010 20:34

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: According to Lappalainen, 4 tanks (from 152th Tank Brigade?) were sent to Teikarsaari.
The same number was lannded on Suonionsaari on 4 July, it's not excluded that these were the same tanks. As concerns landing crafts, by the start of the landing operation (1 July) the skerry ships detachments of the Baltic Fleet (captain 1st rank Feldman), used to land troops, consisted of 2 ferries (coupled tenders), 32 tenders, and 30 cutters (13 "KM" tupe and 17 "ZIS" type), that is from the history of the Batlic Fleet. On 4 July this detachments was divided by two groups: the first, consisting of 16 tenders and 20 cutters landed 160th Rifle Regiment on Teikarssari and the second - 2 ferries, 14 tenders, 19 cutters - 143rd Rifle Regiment on Suonionsaari. It seems that one ferry, consisting of a couple of barges, could carry 2 light tanks.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1421525
Martti Kujansuu wrote:Captured message. Forwarded to Kuokka [at 1.30 a.m.?].
July 5th [1944], 6 p.m. 152nd Tank Brigade to St. Petersburg Front HQ. Four T-26s from 2nd Battalion [?] will continue the attack. 20/79 g (Teikarinsaari?). Five T-26s have been concentrated to square 22843 (the NE tip of Suonionsaari). Waiting for an answer how to act on square 2079 (Teikarinsaari).

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3222323
Kaapattu sanoma. Annettu 1,30 Kuokka.
5.7. klo 18.
152.Ps.Pr. Pietarin rint.esikunnalle 4 T-26 ps.vaunua II/Patl:sta jatkaa hyökkäystä.
20.79 g (Teikarinsaari?) 5 T-26 vaunua on keskitetty neliöön 22843 (Suonionsaaren koillispää) odottaa vastausta toimintaa varten neliössä 2079 (Teikarinsaari).
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1480101

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 27 Jun 2010 13:04

Compare with the war diary of the 59th Army:
"5.7 ...152nd Tank Brigade: 2 companies at Sommee station. One company with 4 tanks is on Teikar-Sari island, the rest 6 tanks are ready for transfer to the same place".

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 28 Jun 2010 15:09

The same topic was recently discussed on a Russian forum:
http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3785
and they have uploaded several schemes from a Finnish documentary (situation on Teikarsaari 30.06-1.07):
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
If I understand correctly, 3./RP 7 is "3rd company, 7th Coastal Battalion", TK - "cannon company", PSTTKI - antitank guns, KK - machinegun, ITTKI - antiaircraft machinegun. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 Jun 2010 15:14

Hello Art:

PSTTKI - panssarintorjuntatykki - AT Gun
KK - konekivääri - machinegun
ITTKI - ilmatorjuntatykki - AA Gun (not machinegun)

Rgrds Petri

Edit; and yes:
RP - Rannikkopataljoona - Coastal Battalion
TK - Tykkikomppania - Anti-tank gun company
Panssari Salama - Paying homage to Avalon Hill PanzerBlitz and Panzer Leader board games from those fab '70s.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jun 2010 17:38

PBlitz wrote:TK - Tykkikomppania - Anti-tank gun company
Please correct me if was wrong, but IMHO TK=Heavy Company included mortars, also.
Or am I referreng to the German organisation? :?

Anyhow, with a summer smile
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 Jun 2010 17:49

JH,

Just a quick translation of the names. TK seemed a reasonable choice as AT guns were there. 80 seems a very high number for a Tykkikomppania though?

Surely not a TK-komppania? As in Tiedotuskomppania - Informations Company - photographers, storywriters etc. Pen is mightier than sword? ;)

Edit: Mortar company is a separate company? If we are talking about Finnish Infantry regiments with their separate Mortar and AT Gun companies? I could be very well the one in err here - would not be the first time! :P

Edit2: Found it! 80.TK = 80. Torjuntakomppania = 80th Defencecompany (translation??)

Source: "Puolustusvoimain joukot 1941-1945 peitelukuina Koonnut Pentti Kopsa"
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jun 2010 18:38

PBlitz, you are absolutely right.
TK means Tykkikomppania or AT Gun Company.
The "KRH-komppania" (Mortar Coy) was not in with "Tykkikomppania" excluding the very start of the wars.
J-P
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 Jun 2010 18:41

JH,

I am actually absolutely in error 8-)

TK = Torjuntakomppania
Tyk.K = Tykkikomppania, but many lazy souls apparently have used TK instead of the proper Tyk.K when referring to Tykkikomppania.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jun 2010 18:49

Queating:
TK = Torjuntakomppania
Tyk.K = Tykkikomppania, but many lazy souls apparently have used TK instead of the proper Tyk.K when referring to Tykkikomppania.


It must either be a Coy of the Coastal Regiments or a temporaly unit.
Coastal Coy it must have been!
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
Now we were on-line, so our messages are seriously disturbed by the enemy! 8-)
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 Jun 2010 18:58

LOL

It is funny how one gets a "putkinäkö". I definitively knew that Tyk.K is a Tyk.K, but once I saw the graphic of the anti-tank gun together with "TK", see what happened :D

And a final edit: http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8049

:oops: :oops: :oops: :welcome:
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jun 2010 19:09

Yeah!
If I'm even close to the thruth "Torjuntakomppaniat" or "Repression Coy's were from "Rannikkoprikaateista", Coastal Inf.Brg's.
Keep an eye of the enemy!
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 Jun 2010 20:27

Hmmm... A bit off topic, but these translations seem to be, errr... they sound wrong somehow...

Blocking Company? A goal keeper might make a block... Defence Company? That does not work... Repression Company, not happy with that either... Repressive fire - yes, repressive company, umm, no.

What was their role, do you know? Some sort of "suojajoukko", perhaps not the best men material either?

How about a Security Company? I know it's not the proper translation, but a widely used english term instead. Fits with their role? Security units often had responsibilities of securing rear areas etc?

- Petri
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vyacheslav_M » 28 Jun 2010 20:47

Hello to everyone! I did a research about Vyborg bay fighting in 1941-1944 using Central NAvy Archive documents and russian secondary sources. During research i couldn't find any details about Ravansaari island fighting. Open russian sources only mention that the island was captured be the midday of 4th of july without details and there is no description in navy documents. Unfornately, i don't know finnish language (yet), and I please your help. Some years ago I was given a short transcription from Nillo Lappalainen book but also withou details. Thank you!

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 28 Jun 2010 21:30

PBlitz wrote:Hmmm... A bit off topic, but these translations seem to be, errr... they sound wrong somehow...

Blocking Company? A goal keeper might make a block... Defence Company? That does not work... Repression Company, not happy with that either... Repressive fire - yes, repressive company, umm, no.

What was their role, do you know? Some sort of "suojajoukko", perhaps not the best men material either?

How about a Security Company? I know it's not the proper translation, but a widely used english term instead. Fits with their role? Security units often had responsibilities of securing rear areas etc?

- Petri
In fact the Torjuntakomppaniat were Coastal Companies originally trained by the Coast-Artillery as close support troops of the coast fortification.
To be honest, they weren't formed with the men above the average, i.e. they were mostly crapped. Sorry for saying that! :oops:

Back to the subject of translating these bloody TK's:
Maybe the translation might be "Coastal defence Company"?
Now I give up. Let us leave the Forum to the professionals! :D
Greets
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
P.S. I love this milwink Smilie now and forever!
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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