Were Wittmann Tactics Rash.

[general g]

Obviously all claims are inaccurate but that is something else than inventing.

I ask you a simple question.
Wittmann never went anywhere near 14 of the tanks kills he was awarded for Villers Bocage.
Simple geography meant he never saw those 14 tanks.
There was no possibility that he could have engaged them.
He was not even aware of their existence until the fighting was over.
There is no confusion or error.
A deliberate lie was concocted so as to inflate the mans reputation.
Why did he accept an award that mentions him knocking EVERY tank lost that day?
Perhaps he had a sudden memory loss (early PTS?) and got confused?
As you say no true hero would take the credit for the actions of others.
I mean you would have to be a bit of a rogue to take credit from your fellow soldiers.

I am still waiting for examples from Normandy where I can check the multiple kill claims so common in Russia.
The truth is once you have the numbers from the other side (not possible in the East) then you find it is nearly all propoganda.

Strange you do not mention Barkmann. I think he claimed 10+ in one famous action. Why the reticence?
And of course Willy Fey....................

This is your usual biased opinion.Schneider gives an explanation about the number.
And you can generally find all details in Schneiders books on the Tiger units.

And I will maintain that the superiority of the tiger tank which is generally accepted makes the claims of tank aces perfecty believable.

[Harro]

He is not known to have been that type of personality.

Says who?

[Steve Wilcox]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong , "Wasn't 5-7 Tigers a tank company TOE, + a like number of PZIII's? I suppose by Jun 44 most of the III's were gone.

AFAIK, they would have been on a different KStN by then for the most part (I think at least one outfit stayed on the earlier organization).
KStN 1176d of 15.8.1942 had: 9 x Tiger I, 10 x Pz III.
KStN 1176e of 5.3.1943 had: 14 x Tiger I.

[general g]

He is not known to have been that type of personality.

Says who?

Says those that wrote about him.He could also easily have survived the war if he had accepted to be an intructor after Villers Bocage.That he did not says a lot about him.Same thing for commanding the attack in the action that killed him.

[Harro]

He is not known to have been that type of personality.

Says who?

Says those that wrote about him.

Names? And how did they know?

[Michael Kenny]

Nobody can know how many tanks were hit by typhoon rockets because you cannot know how many did not sustain damage that forced the tank to be abandoned.So no hit ratio can be calculated.

This is an outright lie.
The survey of EVERY SINGLE WRECK in the area found conclusively that only 7 tanks from 46 were hit by aircraft rockets .
Conclusive proof that the accounts by 2nd PD were face saving excuses.
Note that 29 of the 46 were definately knocked out by Allied forces. So much for the oft used excuse they 'ran out of petrol'.

[Michael Kenny]

makes the claims of tank aces perfecty believable.

I would hate to get between a man and his beliefs.
I note you shy away from facts and have no explaination why Wittmann accepted an award for knocking out 14 tanks that he never even knew existed until he fled his knocked out Tiger.

[general g]

Nobody can know how many tanks were hit by typhoon rockets because you cannot know how many did not sustain damage that forced the tank to be abandoned.So no hit ratio can be calculated.

This is an outright lie.
The survey of EVERY SINGLE WRECK in the area found conclusively that only 7 tanks from 46 were hit by aircraft rockets .
Conclusive proof that the accounts by 2nd PD were face saving excuses.
Note that 29 of the 46 were definately knocked out by Allied forces. So much for the oft used excuse they 'ran out of petrol'.

Reading is clearly not your strongpoint.You know nothing about tanks hit and not damaged to the extent of having to abandon them.So no hit ratio can be calculated.
Your bias shows again.

[general g]

makes the claims of tank aces perfecty believable.

I would hate to get between a man and his beliefs.
I note you shy away from facts and have no explaination why Wittmann accepted an award for knocking out 14 tanks that he never even knew existed until he fled his knocked out Tiger.

The award was not for knocking out a particular number of tanks.

[Christoph Awender]

You know nothing about tanks hit and not damaged to the extent of having to abandon them.

generalg, would you please care to explain this sentence to me. They abandoned tanks which were hit and not damaged??
Would it be better for you if we say the rockets had a 4% effectivity of destroying tanks. Doesn´t change the fact that it was just 4%.

/Christoph

[Michael Kenny]

Reading is clearly not your strongpoint.You know nothing about tanks hit and not damaged to the extent of having to abandon them.So no hit ratio can be calculated.

Wriggle, wriggle. Every tank was inspected. If it was disabled in any way it would have counted as an air or ground kill.

You presented evidence you claim showns that Typhoons 'succeeded in even totally disabling the heaviest tanks'

A quote from Geschichte der 2.Panzerdivsion F.JStrauss p171:'
In this battle area also the enemy airforce played the main role.By day every movement was almost impossible.
As at La Desiniere(29/30.7)the rocketfiring Typhoon made their presence particularly felt to the 2.Panzerdivision on 07 and 07.08.
They had an accuracy which could scarcely be believed and they succeeded in even totally disabling the heaviest tanks.'

This is flatly contradicted by the survey that found only 9 out of 46 tanks fell to any kind of aircraft weapon.
Your original claim is unsupported and in the light of detailed OR inspection of the tank wrecks, completely untrue.
The claim that rockets 'had an accuracy which could scarcely be believed' is flatly untrue. The hit rate for rockets (only a direct hit could dameage a tank) was 4%. For every 100 rockets fired only 4 would hit the aiming point.
Here we have pictures of a test attack. A captured Panther was painted white and placed in the middle of an open field.
It was filled with fuel in the hope of a spectacular explosion for the watching VIP's.
A number of Squardrons attacked it and the net result was sperficial damage but a rupture of the bulging fuel tanks.
It was lit up like a Christamas tree and the target for dozens of Aircraft but it survived.
























By the way I am not out to change your mind. Nothing can get through to a dedicated fan-boy like your good self. I just want to show the casual viewer how the facts contradict your fantasy version of reality.

[Michael Kenny]

The award was not for knocking out a particular number of tanks.

Really?

Corps Headquarters 1st SS Panzer Corps Corps C.P., 13 June 1944
On 12/6/44 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was ordered to cover the corps'left flank
near Villers-Bocage, because it was assumed that English armored forces which had
broken through would advance south and southeast. There were no more panzer-
grenadiers available.
Wittmann arrived at the specified time with 6 Panzerkampfwagen VI. The Wittmann
Company was forced to change positions three times during the night of 13/6/1944
on account of very heavy artillery fire and on the morning of 13/6/1944 was
positioned near Reference Point 213 northeast of Villers-Bocage with 5 Panzer-
kampfwagen VI ready for action.
At eight o'clock a lookout reported to SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann that a large
column of enemy tanks was advancing on the Caen - Villers-Bocage road.
Wittmann, who was in cover with his Tiger 200 mtrs south of the road, saw an English
armored battalion followed by an English armored troop carrier battalion.
The situation called for immediate action. Wittmann was unable to get orders to his
men who had moved off, instead he immediately drove into the English column with
his tank, firing on the move. This rapid intervention initially split the column. From
80 meters Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tanks, positioned his Tiger next to the
column and drove, 10 to 30 meters beside it firing in his direction of travel, along the
column. He succeeded in knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
An additional six tanks were hit and their crews forced to bail out. The accompany-
ing battalion in armored troop carriers was almost completely wiped out. The follow-
ing four tanks of the Wittmann Company took about 230 prisoners. Wittmann drove
on, in advance of his company, into Villers-Bocage. His tank was hit and immobi-
lized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun in the center of the town. Nevertheless, he still
destroyed all the enemy vehicles in range and scattered the enemy unit. Wittmann
and his crew subsequently abandoned their tank and made their way north on foot
approximately 15 km to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the la, turned
about with 15 Panzer IVs of the Panzer-Lehr Division and once again headed for
Villers-Bocage. His amphibious-Volkswagen having meanwhile found him, he then
drove to the 1st Company, which was deployed along the main street of Villers-
Bocage and based on his impressions of the battle and the situation committed them
against the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns still in the town.
Through his determined action Wittmann and his Tiger tank destroyed the greater
part of a powerful enemy offensive column already deep in the rear of our front
- the English 22nd Armoured Brigade - and acting solely on his own initiative, and
displaying the highest personal bravery, he averted a threat to the entire front of the
1st SS Panzer Corps. At that time there were no reserves available to the corps.
With today's action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 anti-tank
guns with his tank.
signed Dietrich
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS

Seems to me the number of tanks is very important in the above.

Now depending on your source Wittmann had 114 or 117 kills when he left Russia.

138-114 = 24 at Villers Bocage
138-117 = 21 at Villers Bocage.

This means he was awarded a medal for at least 11 phantom tank kills

[ChristopherPerrien]

IMO, generalg, Mr Michael Kenny, is one of the most knowledgeable people on this planet as to losses of German tanks in Normany in WWII. I'd take what he says and build on it for any later arguements you may develope.

Nobody here is right all of the time,but there are people here who know alot of stuff , work with what you hear/see.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Mr Kenny ,

I think your pictures(nice as they are, thank you) detract from your arguement. That Panther is "destroyed. Considering a 4% hit rate and the fact that FB's carried about 10 missles each, that turns into every FB having a 40% chance of well nigh destroying one tank if not severly damaging the same. Add in Mg's and cannons,and I easily understand why Jabos were so feared, moreso because they attacked in numbers. 10 Jabos means possibly about 4 dead tanks and as many more damaged(i.e. a tank company ineffective). Really bad/decisive losses if you ask me.

[Michael Kenny]

Mr Kenny ,

I think your pictures(nice as they are, thank you) detract from your arguement. That Panther is "destroyed. Considering a 4% hit rate and the fact that FB's carried about 10 missles each, that turns into every FB having a 40% chance of well nigh destroying one tank if not severly damaging the same. Add in Mg's and cannons,and I easily understand why Jabos were so feared, moreso because they attacked in numbers. 10 Jabos means possibly about 4 dead tanks and as many more damaged(i.e. a tank company ineffective). Really bad/decisive losses if you ask me.

The photos show that a single static tank with distinctive markings and completely in the open could be attacked by unmolested aircraft and the best they managed was 3 hits from 64 rockets (4%)
Thus the best possible result is the 4% figure. Factor in the effects of flak and fleeting glimpses of camoflaged 'objects' and you realise just how difficult it was.

There is an ORS paper 'Assesment of attacks on small target by fighter type aircraft '(20 May 1944) that found a 1% hit rate for bombs (6 from 777 dropped) and 2-4% for rockets.