1945 Lost German girl

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Forum and Stello,

I was so impressed by your very precise research work.

I call your attention on some facts:

1. The LGG object has rounded corners, more associated to deckcards than to banknotes, which have a sharp 90 degree angled corner
2. The "leaves" have a closely similar design but my first oppinion the pattern does not match exactly. The banknote design seems to repeat itself close to the corners. Nevertheless I would suggest to draw a line on the contour of the dark images ( leaves ) at the corners. This would result in an empty figure that would easily allow you to superimpose and compare. Nevertheless there is laso some possible deformation in the LGG object due to the fact that it is not perpendicular to the camera line of sight.
3. The banknotes background seems to be lightly coloured (green?) while the LGG object is white.
4. There is less contrast between the pattern and the base background in the banknote than in the LGG object.

I believe that to have a 100% confirmation it needs some further analysis.

Now, Annelie has given an oppinion which deserves our respect. I share her view as that is the case with many veteran soldiers or civilians. Nevertheless veteran´s attitude towards this issue is totally different in each case or it has not been the same as years go by. I suppose that most of us in this thread have dealt this subject with sympathy and respect.

The idea of trying to use Facebook is good as an alternative and does not mean to desert this forum which has hosted all of us for such a long time. Maybe a small team could keep that track. My father is 86 and fools around Facebook from time to time. It is a possibility but it has always intrigued me why nobody has recognized her through the years - schoolmates, neighbours, relatives, friends, working partners, unit comrades, etc. This caption has been in documentals on TV since the years of the "The World at War".

The question is: If we do find out who she is, is it for her or is it for our own satisfaction ?

It is open for debate.

Cheers

Ignacio

[Annelie]

If we do find out who she is, is it for her or is it for our own satisfaction ?

From reading this thread IMHO think its purely for our own satisfaction.

always intrigued me why nobody has recognized her through the years - schoolmates, neighbours, relatives, friends, working partners, unit comrades, etc

First I think perhaps she has changed a lot since 45. Perhaps someone or many people have recognized her from her
own circle of family and friends. Perhaps people think her privacy would have been invaded and not wishing to do
that?

Has no one wondered why she has from what can be seen on the video absolutely nothing of personal on her except what some think are playing cards. She doesn't carry a bag or personal items, coat or any number of things people on a long march would be carrying?

[stello]

Dear Forum and Ignacio,

I red your remarks about my research work. I’ll try to answer point to point (first of all, download the pdf attached file before reading):

rounded corners:
If we compare the blured 1940 100 Korun banknote with the LGG still-frame, we can remark that the profiles are almost the same. It probably means that we are watching the same angle; a squared blured angle could look like a roundy angle. (necessarily a 90 degree angled corner);

the comparison of the leaves:
You suggested to draw a line on the contour of the dark images (leaves) at the corners. I have preferred to set a sequence of pictures and pointed the dark zones with yellow points and A-B-C-D letters: points and letters are on the same line and proportions are correspondents in all pictures: LGG still-frame, blured and color banknote detail. It can’t be only a coincidence...

3 - 4. picture colour and contrast:
I’m not an expert about old film. I think that the discrepancy from still-frame and the picture are depending by the low-quality of the materials and above all by the different brightness or colour balancing.

Cheers all! Stefano

comparison B.pdf

(81.42 KiB) Downloaded 430 times

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Stello,
Dear Forum and Stello,

Congratulations

Your comparison work is remarkable! A real inspiration for all of us. There are few questions left regarding the "object". I agree about the colour difference because of the quality and the development process of old films ( real color has a red or blue tint ). I am not an expert in photograpy but even if colours were close to the real ones, they were not exact at all. A Forum member once precisely identified the film as a Kodak, but I do not remember what type or version. It would be nice to consult his opinion.

The "object" seems to be quite rigid. Meaning that she holds quite a lot of them, if we finally conclude they are banknotes. Remark: The exchange value of Bohemia and Moravia Protectorate money at that moment would be nil, not even the cost of the paper in which they were printed. Of course that was something that LGG probably ignored.

Cheers!

Ignacio

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Forum,

Stello has presented us a new observation!

As he has stated before LGG holds banknotes in her hands, but now he adds that there is also a red book.

When LGG moves her hands downwards she separates the banknotes from the red book. She introduces the banknotes inside her right trouser pocket with her right hand. In this precise instant the red book is exposed. It is a reddish book with a yellow or golden line. It looks like and Arbeitfront ID book.

Document experts in this Forum could advise us regarding which German military , political or civilian organizations also had red covered ID books. This would give us a very precise lead.

Cheers

Ignacio

[stello]

Hello Forum, Hello Ignacio,

Here are a pdf file in wich appears the mentioned red book.
You will find also some sample regarding German documents with red cover.

the red book.pdf

(105.64 KiB) Downloaded 555 times

Cheers, Stefano

[ignacioosacar]

Dear Forum,

Very good for Stello! I had never noticed the red book before.

Was LGG a DAF worker ? What other red ID books were in use ?

Any expert advice on this issue ?

Cheers all

Ignacio

[stello]

Hello Forum,

I noted that pdf files have no preview on the thread, so I thought to upload again my last three pdf files as jpg images (as smaller than pdf files):
pictures 01 and 02: comparison among a still-frame taken from LGG’s footage and a 1940 100 Korun Bohemia-Moravia banknote;
picture 03: the “red book” and some German documents with red cover.

Cheers all, Stefano

03.jpg (198.85 KiB) Viewed 2144 times

02.jpg (176.15 KiB) Viewed 2144 times

01.jpg (195.48 KiB) Viewed 2144 times

[Heimatschuss]

Buona sera Stello,

absolutely excellent detective work and great presentation!
I really love how you're striving to get all those small details straight.

Here's another candidate for the thin red mystery book:
NS Frauenschaft membership booklet (Supplied by Vikki at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1117399)


Perhaps not the best piece of paper to show to Allied soldiers but when it's the only ID thing you have (left)?

Another possibility may be a savings book for a bank account. That would fit in with the cash in her hands and the idea of an attempted bribery. But these booslets varied from bank to bank and from time to time as a far as I know from old documents of my own family. Would be very hard to establish.

The quest continues.
Torsten

[Doktor Krollspell]

A very interesting thread about the fate of an anonymous woman has now taken an even more interesting turn. This thread is one of the truly best in this forum, best because of the skilled approach by many of the contributors. So thanks, Ignacio, Stefano, Annelie, Torsten and all others...

About the ethical discussion that Annelie raised on the question of her identity, or to be more exact the question of just how public this research should be, that is an important one. If you ever manage to solve the mystery of her identity, the right thing to do is try to contact her (if she's still alive), or her relatives...


Thanks for all your impressive work!

Christian/Doktor Krollspell

[kriminalist]

Merry Christmas/Frohe Weihnachten/Prettige Kerstdagen everyone.

I have been thinking about this money that the Lost German Girl has been carrying. Would this not mean we could elliminate the possibility that she had been raped before getting to the point where she was filmed? Surely, any person assaulting her would also have taken any of her possesions or am I wrong here?

Kriminalist/Romke

[Steve1985]

Hello I just recently came across the LGG clip on youtube and was deeply saddened by the footage of this young girl. In an effort to find out more I came across this thread and was surprised that so many people have been moved by these images. I also came across a very interesting link that gives a U.S. soldiers account of the liberation of plzen. I found this part to be very relevant.

“No. You can ask every soldier here, and they’ll say – all we wanted to do was go home. Don’t care about anything else, just get us home. I guess we were fortunate that there were enough stationed here to get the POWs home and also the displaced persons. We went to Marienbad for a short time after that, and there was a huge displaced persons camp there at the airport. I can’t estimate how many were there, probably several thousand. And all we were doing there was guarding them so they wouldn’t walk away, but they didn’t want to go because they were getting food and bathing facilities and I guess getting a paper so they could leave.”

What was the reception like from the Czech people as you gradually liberated the villages from the German border towards Plzeň?
“Well, I personally did not get any accolades from the little town we went into. As we were marching the prisoners through the town to the POW enclosure, the Czech civilians in that town would take bats, rakes, shovels – anything they could get their hands on – and whack those poor guys. Our medics took care of many more Germans than they did us guys.”

So it was your job to protect the German POWs.

“Right. I protected them the best I could, but there were too many of them. The sidewalk was lined with people you know. I knew how the Czechs felt, but still I couldn’t allow ‘em to beat up on prisoners.”

So my thoughts after reading the posts on this thread and this article are.
Its most plausible explanation that the LGG was in fact an a German soldier who surrendered to U.S. forces unharmed somewhere in the proximity of plzen, and was assaulted while being escorted out of a town or village by angry locals. And that her trembling and shakiness if front of the camera is a reaction from being assaulted a short time prior but may or may not also be the results of long term PTSD. I believe this would also explain why she appears angry in her second walk up to the camera. I mean who wouldnt be angry after being paraded through an angry mob and then videotaped after wards. This would also lessen the probability that her injuries were the result of rape. I am aware that this is all just speculation but I would like to know if you you guys believe that this is a valid theory or improbable.
Here is a link to the article
Link:http://www.radio.cz/en/section/special/ ... ible-sport

[Annelie]

What was the reception like from the Czech people as you gradually liberated the villages from the German border towards Plzeň?
“Well, I personally did not get any accolades from the little town we went into. As we were marching the prisoners through the town to the POW enclosure, the Czech civilians in that town would take bats, rakes, shovels – anything they could get their hands on – and whack those poor guys. Our medics took care of many more Germans than they did us guys

my thoughts after reading the posts on this thread and this article are.
Its most plausible explanation that the LGG was in fact an a German soldier who surrendered to U.S. forces unharmed somewhere in the proximity of plzen, and was assaulted while being escorted out of a town or village by angry locals. And that her trembling and shakiness if front of the camera is a reaction from being assaulted a short time prior but may or may not also be the results of long term PTSD. I believe this would also explain why she appears angry in her second walk up to the camera. I mean who wouldnt be angry after being paraded through an angry mob and then videotaped after wards. This would also lessen the probability that her injuries were the result of rape. I am aware that this is all just speculation but I would like to know if you you guys believe that this is a valid theory or improbable.
Here is a link to the article

Your findings are the most as you say plausible explanation so far. Thankyou for finding the link which adds so much
more to the photo's relevance.

As you pointed out she did look rather angry. This isn't the look of someone who has been raped. Most raped women
would look to not finding a better word defeated, abused look in her eye but she has to me shown spirit.

[Steve1985]

I found some text on Flakhelferin that was written the 80s. It is in pdf format and it is entirely written in German. It would appears to discuss the units stationed around Prague in great detail. Maybe it will provide some clues.
File name: [Askania] - Zur Problematik von Soldatinnen.pdf File size: 21.67 MB

[Konig152]

Hi all, I'm new to this forum. A very, very interesting post. I've looked the video over and over. The trousers the girl is wearing looks al lot like a Luftwaffe Hose for a Flakhelferin. Look at http://www.militaria-depot.de/luftwaffe ... ferin.html for an example. I'm pretty sure that it's the same kind of trousers.