"Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
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"Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Gents
I am currently reading Demolishing the Myth by Zamulin which is very good for Soviet organisations but lacking in detail on the German side
Googling has discovered that the main striking force of DR was a Panzer Kampfgruppe, what I have been unable to find out was what was the make-up of the Kampfgruppe. I'd guess SS-PR "DR", III./SS-PzGr "DF", III./SS-AR "DR" & 1 Pi.-Kp SS-Pz.Pi. "DR", but it would be nice to have this confirmed or denied please
If it makes a difference I'm primarily interested in the battles of the 6th-9th July 1943
Thanks
Bob
I am currently reading Demolishing the Myth by Zamulin which is very good for Soviet organisations but lacking in detail on the German side
Googling has discovered that the main striking force of DR was a Panzer Kampfgruppe, what I have been unable to find out was what was the make-up of the Kampfgruppe. I'd guess SS-PR "DR", III./SS-PzGr "DF", III./SS-AR "DR" & 1 Pi.-Kp SS-Pz.Pi. "DR", but it would be nice to have this confirmed or denied please
If it makes a difference I'm primarily interested in the battles of the 6th-9th July 1943
Thanks
Bob
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
On the first day regiment Deutschland broke through the first defenseline.The armored battlegroup which was composed as stated intervened on the second day when "Der Führer" broke through the second defenseline. It had been intended that the armored battlegroup should move on the second defenseline on the first day after the first defenseline was broken but it was delayed by the bad terrainconditions.
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Thanks for the swift reply
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
On July, 5th 2 and 3 battalions of the regiment of D also a part of combat engineer, a heavy tank company and a battalion of assault guns have begun advancement in depth of defense of red army. On July, 6th a II tank battalion, rec. battalion and a regiment DF have continued advancement. A regiment D was kept in reserve
Look for it and you will find it...
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Thanks
Were the assault guns kept with "D" in reserve on the 6th?
Were the assault guns kept with "D" in reserve on the 6th?
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
In 13: 20 of 6 th July was seized the village Lutschki by the DF Regiment, after this the battalion of assault guns start advanced into breakthrough together with rec. battalion. According to the order of Corp. commander the D Regiment position is on the left(reserve), the DF Regiment is on the right, Armour Regiment is in the center. To close of the end of day Das Reich was involved in the hard fighting with 5 Guard Tank Corp. 5 Guard Tank Corp. had lost 128 tanks. 6./II.SS-Pz-Regiment 2 Commander - Untersturmführer Karl-Heinz Worthmann was killed in this day.
Do you have tank status report for the 10.09.43 of the Armour Regiment Das Reich? especially PzKpfw V.
Do you have tank status report for the 10.09.43 of the Armour Regiment Das Reich? especially PzKpfw V.
Look for it and you will find it...
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Here is the OoB of "Das Reich" in July 1943:
"Das Reich".........Gruppenführer Krüger Walter
Ia....................Maier Georg later in Jul 1943 Stdf Heilmann Nikolaus
"Deutschland"......Stdf Harmel Heinz
I/"Deutschland"....Hsf Weidinger Otto (WIA 08 Jul 1943) succeeded by Sbf Horn Fritz
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
3.K...................?
4.K...................Osf Weissenbach Ernst
II/"Deutschland"...Sbf Bissinger Hans
5.K...................?
6.K...................?
7.K...................?
8.K...................Osf Unterkofler Sepp
III/"Deutschland"...Sbf Wisliceny Günther
9.K...................Ziemssen Wilhelm (WIA 09 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Burkhardt Karl
10.K.................Hsf Schreiber Helmut
11.K.................Hsf Ullmann Rudolf (KIA 30 Jul 1943)
12.K.................?
13.K.................?
14.K.................Osf Maisenbacher Eugen (WIA end Jul 1943)
15.K.................?
16.K.................Osf Macher Heinz (WIA 30 Jul 1943)
"Der Führer"........Osbf Stadler Sylvester
I/"Der Führer"......Hsf Opificius Hans (WIA 31 Jul 1943)
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
3.K...................?
4.K...................Rudolf Karl (KIA 08 Jul 1943)
II/"Der Führer".....Hsf Maitre Emil
5.K...................Hsf Altrogge Josef (WIA Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Schulzer Johannes
6.K...................?
7.K...................Hsf Reitzenstein Gerd
8.K...................?
III/"Der Führer"....Sbf Kaiser Vinzenz
9.K...................Osf Braun Gustav (WIA 14 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Immervoll Hans
10.K.................Hsf Werner Heinz (WIA 30 Jul 1943) Succeeded by Usf Krüger Joachim
11.K.................?
12.K.................Schulz Max
13.K.................?
14.K.................Usf Seegerer Georg
15.K.................Mast Herbert (KIA 08 Jul 1943)
16.K.................Schulz Herbert
PR2..................Osbf Reitzenstein Hans
I/PR 2...............Sbf Weiss Hans
1.K...................Hsf Holzer Friedrich
2.K...................Osf Schöntaube Joachim
3.K...................Hsf Burmeister Walter
4.K...................Hsf Tetsch Ernst (-> III/PR 3) succeeded by Hsf Endemann Wilhelm
II/PR 2..............Sbf Tychsen Christian
5.K...................Osf Pavelka Hans (KIA 16 Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Himme Karl
6.K...................Hsf Kesten Dieter
7.K...................Usf Kruse Ullrich (KIA 30 Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Kloskowski Karl (WIA 30 Jul 1943)
8.K...................?
Tiger K..............Hsf Zimmermann Herbert (WIA 07 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Lorenz Karl (KIA 07 Jul 1943)
III/PR 3.............Sbf Asbahr Erhard (KIA 12 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Tetsch Ernst
9.K...................Hsf Zinn Siegfried (KIA 07 Jul 1943)
10.K.................Hsf Burfeind Hans
11.K.................Osf Metzger Adolf (KIA 07 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Bucher Sepp
StuG-Abteilung 2...Sbf Kniep Walter (17 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Krag Ernst
1.K...................Osf Graun Friedrich
2.K...................Hsf Krag Ernst (17 Jul 1943 -> StuG-Abteilung 2)
3.K...................Röhder Wolfgang
Aufklärungs-Abt 2.Sbf Fick Jakob
1.K...................Osf Resch Otto
2.K...................?
3.K...................Osf Scharfe Reinhold
4.K...................?
5.K...................Hsf Drexler Walter
Pionier-Bataillon 2.Sbf Enseling Rudolf
1.K...................Hsf Brosow Siegfried
2.K...................?
3.K...................Hsf Arnold Karl
Nachrichten-Abt 2.Hsf Sorg Theodor
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
Flak-Abt 2..........Osbf Blume Hans
1.K...................?
2.K...................Hsf Reimann Otto
3.K...................Hsf Mutzelfeldt Hans
AR 2.................Osbf Kreuz Karl
I/AR 2...............Sbf Lorenz Heinz
II/AR 2..............Sbf Drexler Oskar
III/AR 2.............Eichberger Friedrich (KIA 16 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Kahlhammer Ludwig
IV/AR 2.............Hsf Kahlhammer Ludvig (16 Jul 1943 -> III/AR 2)
Corrections and additions are more than wellcome
Pena V
"Das Reich".........Gruppenführer Krüger Walter
Ia....................Maier Georg later in Jul 1943 Stdf Heilmann Nikolaus
"Deutschland"......Stdf Harmel Heinz
I/"Deutschland"....Hsf Weidinger Otto (WIA 08 Jul 1943) succeeded by Sbf Horn Fritz
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
3.K...................?
4.K...................Osf Weissenbach Ernst
II/"Deutschland"...Sbf Bissinger Hans
5.K...................?
6.K...................?
7.K...................?
8.K...................Osf Unterkofler Sepp
III/"Deutschland"...Sbf Wisliceny Günther
9.K...................Ziemssen Wilhelm (WIA 09 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Burkhardt Karl
10.K.................Hsf Schreiber Helmut
11.K.................Hsf Ullmann Rudolf (KIA 30 Jul 1943)
12.K.................?
13.K.................?
14.K.................Osf Maisenbacher Eugen (WIA end Jul 1943)
15.K.................?
16.K.................Osf Macher Heinz (WIA 30 Jul 1943)
"Der Führer"........Osbf Stadler Sylvester
I/"Der Führer"......Hsf Opificius Hans (WIA 31 Jul 1943)
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
3.K...................?
4.K...................Rudolf Karl (KIA 08 Jul 1943)
II/"Der Führer".....Hsf Maitre Emil
5.K...................Hsf Altrogge Josef (WIA Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Schulzer Johannes
6.K...................?
7.K...................Hsf Reitzenstein Gerd
8.K...................?
III/"Der Führer"....Sbf Kaiser Vinzenz
9.K...................Osf Braun Gustav (WIA 14 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Immervoll Hans
10.K.................Hsf Werner Heinz (WIA 30 Jul 1943) Succeeded by Usf Krüger Joachim
11.K.................?
12.K.................Schulz Max
13.K.................?
14.K.................Usf Seegerer Georg
15.K.................Mast Herbert (KIA 08 Jul 1943)
16.K.................Schulz Herbert
PR2..................Osbf Reitzenstein Hans
I/PR 2...............Sbf Weiss Hans
1.K...................Hsf Holzer Friedrich
2.K...................Osf Schöntaube Joachim
3.K...................Hsf Burmeister Walter
4.K...................Hsf Tetsch Ernst (-> III/PR 3) succeeded by Hsf Endemann Wilhelm
II/PR 2..............Sbf Tychsen Christian
5.K...................Osf Pavelka Hans (KIA 16 Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Himme Karl
6.K...................Hsf Kesten Dieter
7.K...................Usf Kruse Ullrich (KIA 30 Jul 1943) succeeded by Usf Kloskowski Karl (WIA 30 Jul 1943)
8.K...................?
Tiger K..............Hsf Zimmermann Herbert (WIA 07 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Lorenz Karl (KIA 07 Jul 1943)
III/PR 3.............Sbf Asbahr Erhard (KIA 12 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Tetsch Ernst
9.K...................Hsf Zinn Siegfried (KIA 07 Jul 1943)
10.K.................Hsf Burfeind Hans
11.K.................Osf Metzger Adolf (KIA 07 Jul 1943) succeeded by Osf Bucher Sepp
StuG-Abteilung 2...Sbf Kniep Walter (17 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Krag Ernst
1.K...................Osf Graun Friedrich
2.K...................Hsf Krag Ernst (17 Jul 1943 -> StuG-Abteilung 2)
3.K...................Röhder Wolfgang
Aufklärungs-Abt 2.Sbf Fick Jakob
1.K...................Osf Resch Otto
2.K...................?
3.K...................Osf Scharfe Reinhold
4.K...................?
5.K...................Hsf Drexler Walter
Pionier-Bataillon 2.Sbf Enseling Rudolf
1.K...................Hsf Brosow Siegfried
2.K...................?
3.K...................Hsf Arnold Karl
Nachrichten-Abt 2.Hsf Sorg Theodor
1.K...................?
2.K...................?
Flak-Abt 2..........Osbf Blume Hans
1.K...................?
2.K...................Hsf Reimann Otto
3.K...................Hsf Mutzelfeldt Hans
AR 2.................Osbf Kreuz Karl
I/AR 2...............Sbf Lorenz Heinz
II/AR 2..............Sbf Drexler Oskar
III/AR 2.............Eichberger Friedrich (KIA 16 Jul 1943) succeeded by Hsf Kahlhammer Ludwig
IV/AR 2.............Hsf Kahlhammer Ludvig (16 Jul 1943 -> III/AR 2)
Corrections and additions are more than wellcome
Pena V
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Unfortunately not or did you mean 10/7/43?)Do you have tank status report for the 10.09.43 of the Armour Regiment Das Reich? especially PzKpfw V.
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Division Das Reich IV ,Weidinger p.197 mentions the tankstrength of Das Reich as follows on 11.07.1943: III long 34, IV 18, VI 1, captured T43 8, Sturmgeschütze 27. Pz V it could not have at this time.
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
I mean 10 of September 43. I have info about 21 PzKpfw V - 7 in the 1 coy. and 14 in the 3 coy. Is it correct?Bob_Mackenzie wrote:Unfortunately not or did you mean 10/7/43?)Do you have tank status report for the 10.09.43 of the Armour Regiment Das Reich? especially PzKpfw V.
Look for it and you will find it...
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Hi golz!golz wrote:Division Das Reich IV ,Weidinger p.197 mentions the tankstrength of Das Reich as follows on 11.07.1943: III long 34, IV 18, VI 1, captured T43 8, Sturmgeschütze 27. Pz V it could not have at this time.
May you check the amount of Schützenpanzerwagen and Panzerspähwagen in the"DReich" before Kursk battle?
Look for it and you will find it...
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
According to II.SS Panzer-Korps records and reports to 4.Panzerarmee "Das Reich" began the battle of Kursk on 5.7. 1943 with the following tanks.
Panzer III - 48
Panzer IV - 30
Panzer VI - 12
T-34 - 18 The division also had 8 Befehlpanzer, 33 Stugeschütz III, 24 various types of Pak 38/40
By 9 July "Das Reich" had the following operational tanks. These numbers do not include tanks being repaired. There were no Panther tanks
Panzer III - 31 in combat with the division during the battle of Kursk. See below information on Panzer Regiment.
Panzer IV - 13
Panzer VI - 1
T-34s - 7
SS-Panzer-Regiment 2 was commanded by SS Obersturmführer Hans-Albin von Reitzenstein
I./SS- Pz.Rgt. 2 -commanded by SS Sturmbannführer Hans Weiß was in Germany training on the new Panther tanks. This battalion did not return to Russia until August, thus did not participate in the battle of Kursk.
II./SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 commanded by SS-Sturmbannführer Christian Tychsen.
The divisional Panzergruppe did not have a standard organization, the Germans organized Kampfgruppen specifically for their intended mission, but "Das Reich" Panzergruppe during Kursk was generally organzied as shown below. Since II./SS Panzer-Rgt. 2 was the only Panzer battalion available, it was always included in the Panzergruppe.
II./SS-Panzer-Rgt. 2
III./SS-Panzergrenadier-Rgt. "Der Führer" This battalion was the only Panzergrenadier battalion in the division that was fully equipped with halftracks and so was always included in the Panzergruppe order of battle.
In addition, the Panzergruppe generally included Mobile arty companies, batteries of selfpropelled PanzerJäger, Pioniere elements in various strength and motorized Flak detachments. Sometimes elements of the Sturmgeschützabteilung were included.
The II.SS- Panzer-Korps records list Das Reich tank strength as listed below.
11.7.1943
Panzer III - 34
Panzer IV - 18
Panzer VI - 1
T-34 - 8
12.7.1943
Panzer III - 42
Panzer IV - 18
Panzer VI - 2
T-34 - 8
13.7.1943
Panzer III - 43
Panzer IV - 20
Panzer VI - 1
T-34 - 11
Note that DR's Panzer battalion had more tanks on 13.7.43, which was after the battle of Prochorowka, than it did on 11.7.43, the day before Prochorowka. This was because the Panzer battalion did not see any combat with Russian tanks on 12 July until late in the afternoon. The Panzergruppe was in reserve at the town of Oserowskij ( several kilometers behind the front lines) on the morning of the battle for Prochorowka and was not committed to battle until a detachment of Soviet tanks broke through the SS lines and pushed westward. South of Oserowskij the Panzer battalion ambushed the Soviet tanks destroyed or knocked out most of them. The survivors withdrew back to Soviet lines. This was the only engagement that the battalion took part in on 12 July. It was never involved in any attack through the Prochorowka corridor.
George Nipe
24.6.2011
Panzer III - 48
Panzer IV - 30
Panzer VI - 12
T-34 - 18 The division also had 8 Befehlpanzer, 33 Stugeschütz III, 24 various types of Pak 38/40
By 9 July "Das Reich" had the following operational tanks. These numbers do not include tanks being repaired. There were no Panther tanks
Panzer III - 31 in combat with the division during the battle of Kursk. See below information on Panzer Regiment.
Panzer IV - 13
Panzer VI - 1
T-34s - 7
SS-Panzer-Regiment 2 was commanded by SS Obersturmführer Hans-Albin von Reitzenstein
I./SS- Pz.Rgt. 2 -commanded by SS Sturmbannführer Hans Weiß was in Germany training on the new Panther tanks. This battalion did not return to Russia until August, thus did not participate in the battle of Kursk.
II./SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 commanded by SS-Sturmbannführer Christian Tychsen.
The divisional Panzergruppe did not have a standard organization, the Germans organized Kampfgruppen specifically for their intended mission, but "Das Reich" Panzergruppe during Kursk was generally organzied as shown below. Since II./SS Panzer-Rgt. 2 was the only Panzer battalion available, it was always included in the Panzergruppe.
II./SS-Panzer-Rgt. 2
III./SS-Panzergrenadier-Rgt. "Der Führer" This battalion was the only Panzergrenadier battalion in the division that was fully equipped with halftracks and so was always included in the Panzergruppe order of battle.
In addition, the Panzergruppe generally included Mobile arty companies, batteries of selfpropelled PanzerJäger, Pioniere elements in various strength and motorized Flak detachments. Sometimes elements of the Sturmgeschützabteilung were included.
The II.SS- Panzer-Korps records list Das Reich tank strength as listed below.
11.7.1943
Panzer III - 34
Panzer IV - 18
Panzer VI - 1
T-34 - 8
12.7.1943
Panzer III - 42
Panzer IV - 18
Panzer VI - 2
T-34 - 8
13.7.1943
Panzer III - 43
Panzer IV - 20
Panzer VI - 1
T-34 - 11
Note that DR's Panzer battalion had more tanks on 13.7.43, which was after the battle of Prochorowka, than it did on 11.7.43, the day before Prochorowka. This was because the Panzer battalion did not see any combat with Russian tanks on 12 July until late in the afternoon. The Panzergruppe was in reserve at the town of Oserowskij ( several kilometers behind the front lines) on the morning of the battle for Prochorowka and was not committed to battle until a detachment of Soviet tanks broke through the SS lines and pushed westward. South of Oserowskij the Panzer battalion ambushed the Soviet tanks destroyed or knocked out most of them. The survivors withdrew back to Soviet lines. This was the only engagement that the battalion took part in on 12 July. It was never involved in any attack through the Prochorowka corridor.
George Nipe
24.6.2011
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Hello mr. George M. Nipe
Thanks for your info. This info is known for me!!! I just want to know about SPW and PzSpW during the Kharkov and Kursk.
After the reorganizing of DR she had SPW battalion and SPW company in the rec. battalion, but how much it is not clear to me.
Also the III tank battalion ( befor it was antitank bat.) was used together with heavy company in the Kursk battle.
Do you have info about PzKpfw V at 10.09.43 of the Tank Regiment Das Reich? I search details about Kolomak battle
Thanks for your info. This info is known for me!!! I just want to know about SPW and PzSpW during the Kharkov and Kursk.
After the reorganizing of DR she had SPW battalion and SPW company in the rec. battalion, but how much it is not clear to me.
Also the III tank battalion ( befor it was antitank bat.) was used together with heavy company in the Kursk battle.
Do you have info about PzKpfw V at 10.09.43 of the Tank Regiment Das Reich? I search details about Kolomak battle
Look for it and you will find it...
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
In the beginning of the battle of Kursk all Pz. Vs were subordinated to the Pz.Gren.Div "Groβdeutschland".EugE wrote:Do you have info about PzKpfw V at 10.09.43 of the Tank Regiment Das Reich?
Greets
Juha-Pekka
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
After Kursk Das Reich also got Pz V.