Battle around Malinava, July 1944

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The IronDuke
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by The IronDuke » 22 Apr 2011 23:47

Art wrote:There is some stuff mostly based on S.Morozov's work, but in Russian only:
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/karius1.shtml
http://militera.borda.ru/?1-3-0-00001026-000-0-0
Some points in few words:
1) Schwaner's report gives a more realistic idea of action on 22.07.1944 than Carius' memoirs.
2) The mysterious heavy tank brigade never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2.
3) Some brigade commander (major, HSU) killed by Carius is a pure fantasy. The most high-ranking Soviet tank officer killed at Malinovo on this day was captain Orlovskiy, CO of the 1st battalion, 41st Tank Brigade.
4) Ambush east of Malinovo, in which Carius allegedly destroyed 28 Soviet tanks seems to a fantasy as well. At least no Soviet tank unit ever noticed that it was ambushed in that area.
Does Morozov have similiar information on the other engagements that week cited in Schwaner?

The correlation between German & Soviet sources that you have highlighted is quite striking (the phantom 28 aside). Schwaner suggests further Soviet engagements/losses to other groups from 502 on 24th, 25th and 26th.

How do the German claims on those days stack up against what the Soviet Forces were saying? For example, on 25th july, the Germans claimed to have knocked out 16 IS IIs for no loss, on 24th outside Krivani they claimed 17 tanks.

Is this supported by Soviet sources of that period?

Regards,
IronDuke

Michael Kenny
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Apr 2011 01:37

I would point out a comparison with Wittmann at Villers Bocage. This was a multi-Unit action where Pz IV's were involved as well as Tigers. We have accounts that show the bulk of the Cromwell's lost were in fact destroyed by the crews and not knocked out.
Yet the total number of all British tanks found after the battle were all grouped together and awarded to Wittmann as his personal kills. None of the other German Units involved seem to have engaged or hit anything.

If you were check the claims made for Wittmann you would find they match the total British loss

There is a radio interview with Wittmann where he specificaly states he knocked out 21 tanks at Villers.
This is at least twice the total he engaged.

The IronDuke
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by The IronDuke » 25 Apr 2011 00:44

Michael Kenny wrote:I would point out a comparison with Wittmann at Villers Bocage. This was a multi-Unit action where Pz IV's were involved as well as Tigers. We have accounts that show the bulk of the Cromwell's lost were in fact destroyed by the crews and not knocked out.
Yet the total number of all British tanks found after the battle were all grouped together and awarded to Wittmann as his personal kills. None of the other German Units involved seem to have engaged or hit anything.

If you were check the claims made for Wittmann you would find they match the total British loss

There is a radio interview with Wittmann where he specificaly states he knocked out 21 tanks at Villers.
This is at least twice the total he engaged.
What is the comparison? Carius isn't claiming them all, another german Tank on the scene is credited with several kills and the total numbers lost correlate quite closely with the Soviet sources, and they are not suggesting they killed any of their own tanks themselves. The identity of any other German units on the scene has not been established so we can't be sure at this point anyone else was actually shooting.

Evidence Wittman lied can surely not be used to demonstrate that Carius did??? The other factors don't seem to apply, so where is the comparison?

Art
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by Art » 25 Apr 2011 18:33

The IronDuke wrote: How do the German claims on those days stack up against what the Soviet Forces were saying? For example, on 25th july, the Germans claimed to have knocked out 16 IS IIs for no loss, on 24th outside Krivani they claimed 17 tanks.
48 Guards Tank Regiment lost 11 IS tanks as total write-offs from 17 to 28 July 1944, of them 5 were lost on 22 July at Malinava/Malinovo/Malinovka, one on 24 July (plus one damaged), one on 25 July and the other 4 on other days (don't know when). There is a list of tank losses here:
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/poteri5tk.shtml
As understand 41 and 24 Tank brigades suffered heavy losses on 24 July in the area south of Malinovo as well, here is a scheme of actions on this day from comrade Marchenko:
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/m/marchenko_r ... ijulja.jpg
and another scheme showing tanks of 48 Guards Tank Regiment and 41 Tank Brigades destroyed near Malinovo on 22-24 July:
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/m/marchenko_r ... mashin.jpg
In all 48 Regiment lost 6 IS tanks (5 on 22 and 1 on 24 July). 41 Tank Brigade lost 17 T-34s and 2 M3s (Grants). Marchenko makes and educated guess using rather lengthy speculations, that 8 of them were lost on 22 July and the other 11 on the next two days. The full article can be found here (in Russian):
http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/spzabt502.shtml
I must repeat that brevity is not among its merits, so I find rather difficult to give a synopsis in English.

StugIII 912
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by StugIII 912 » 23 Jul 2011 15:13

Oh,I am very surprise.A tank corp lost 142 tanks and 18SPs in 11days write-off was so serious!Even bigger than the battle around Warsaw 44 08 1-10.I wanna to know wich division 5TC was fighting with during 1944 07 17-28.

Art
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by Art » 23 Jul 2011 15:56

Yes, not surprising that the clash at Malinava on 22 July wasn't considered a big deal.

StugIII 912
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by StugIII 912 » 24 Jul 2011 05:49

The average lost number of 5TC was about 13 or 14 tanks and Sps。On July 22,it lost 5JSII and 10T34,umm,just a little higher than average value。I guess there must had much heavier fight in another day。

StugIII 912
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by StugIII 912 » 24 Jul 2011 05:58

Art:
Can you offer some information about 2Tank Army's loss during 44.07.29-8.10?I had got some data,such as 2TA lost 116 tanks and SPs during 08.01-08.10,and on 08.03 the loss was 58 tanks and sps.
I want to say,that is not a serious loss.In a week's heavy fight,but just lost 116 tanks and SPs.
It is said that heavy fight blushed also during 07.29-07.31,between 2 Tank Army and HG,19 panzer division.I wanna to know the loss of each side.Can you offer any information?Thans a lot. :)

Great wishes from China.

Art
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by Art » 24 Jul 2011 17:25

According to this Polish article tank and SP-gun losses (write-offs) from 20 July to 8 August were 243 pieces, of them 180 from 27 July to 8 August, of them 113 on 1-4 August). Another 51 AFVs were heavily damaged and required repair on the territory of the USSR. More here. According to the report of the Army staff during the period from 20 July to 8 August irreparable losses were:
155 T-34, 48 M4A2, 4 IS-2, 3 Valentines Mk-9, 19 SU-85, 15 SU-76, 1 SU-57, total 243 AFVs. Personnel losses for the same period were 991 men killed, 2 852 wounded, 442 missing. From 20 to 31 July losses were 582 men killed, 1581 wounded, 52 missing. From 1 to 10 August according to the report of the front staff - 409 killed, 1271 wounded, 589 missing. It looks like the losses of missing in action were corrected later.

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pintere
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by pintere » 10 Jan 2015 01:01

This battle has fascinated me for some time now. Here are my thoughts.

It's proving to be frustrating trying to figure out Russian losses in Malinava on that day. One source says 10 tanks for the 41st Tank Brigade, while the links provided by Art indicate 8. What's up with that?

There's also the problem of who destroyed the tanks. Morozov's work is a bit tricky to read, Google translate really isn't up to scratch a lot of the time... But from the sounds of things he says that 2-3 of the destroyed tanks were probably by the Stug batterie nearby, and the rest by Carius and Kerscher. This would create a problem for German claims of how the battle went, but then I found this German field newspaper, dated 28 July '44, "Review of the War Correspondent Reports - The Bronze Shield". It was written by Herbert Steinert, and it provides some interesting tidbits of information (It can be found as document 18 in "Tigers in the Mud").

It writes that most Russian tanks were destroyed outside the village (which corroborates well with Morozov's writing), and here is the interesting part.

"Leutnant Carius can chalk up 10 kills for himself, the second "Tiger" had four. Three of the fleeing bolshevist tanks were destroyed by assault guns which had followed the penetration of the tanks."

With a touch of irony, it seems that this propaganda piece may be a bit more accurate than the AAR! :lol:

This is how I think the battle went down, from comparing all information I've found. Carius and Kerscher charged into the village, where about 20 Russian tanks awaited them. They quickly destroyed 2 T-34's and one IS-2, more or less as Carius writes in his memoirs. Some remaining tanks were destroyed in the village, others were forced out into the field to the southeast of the road. As the attack was taking place, Carius and Kerscher were joined by Nienstedt as well as some assault guns coming from the north. Most Russian tanks were destroyed, but a few did escape. Total Russian losses were 5 IS-2's and 8-10 T-34's The kills can be divided as such, based on my estimates. Carius, 7-10. Kerscher, 3-4. Assault guns, 2-3. The numbers will depend on how many tanks the Russians did lose that day. The 502nd AAR was off by a few tanks in their final tally, writing 17 tanks destroyed. It also was either unaware of or did not take into account the kills by the Stug's, and thus all were attributed to Carius and Kerscher.

There are still some remaining questions to be answered. First, how many Russian tanks were lost at Malinava? Second, how many were destroyed by the Stug's and when? Third, were most Russian tanks destroyed in the village, or just outside of it? Contributors who know Russian are most welcome, as they may be able to better bring up the necessary information from the links provided by Art.

EugE
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Re: Battle around Malinava, July 1944

Post by EugE » 12 Feb 2015 05:45

translation, some points from Marchenko work:
3(battalion)/41 tanks brigade and the last tanks of 1/41 about the noon have occupied Malinovo on July, 22nd and then have entered in the lazy skirmish with approaching German StuG's on the northeast. In the skirmish participated approximately half tanks of 3/41 according to the scheme of the knocked tanks. Last three tanks of the 1/41 were gonna reinforce of the IS-2 platoon and have to raid to the railroad station. Some tank damages occured during air raid and the leaving this group was delayed.
The company of Tigers has approached along the Dvinsk highway. Carius & Kerscher tanks crossed the unprotected bridge at Grejzatts Tilts and moved through the village (village on the both sides of highway) simply fire from the houses have knocked the Soviet tanks standing in the area of sheds and buildings in the distance of 200 metres from highway on southern edge of a village, and then fire to a back have killed all Т-34/85 which participated in skirmish with StuG.
IS-2 of the 48 heavy tanks regiment find out it and have try to attack village but were rolled away with losses. Losses in attack are not clear. 5 burned IS-2 from two companies of a regiment, 3 and 2 tanks. Two tanks can be from Orlovskii raid group, it even most likely. Two heroes of Soviet Union was lost. However both were awarded posthumously. A "Hero of Soviet Union" was the captain Moroz, the commander of 3/41 with an award of the Red Star on a breast. The tank with initial numbering of cars of a battalion have burnt there where Karius has told. The captain Orlovskii has burnt down in tank together with crew.
The success reason - the personnel of 3/41 are inexperienced reinforcements. The battalion has come up to brigade at the evening of 21. The drivers had driver's experience only 3 hours. Officers - are inexperienced and not ready for fight.
Look for it and you will find it...

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