Crusader OOB

[dor1941]

I've done a check:
- H.K.A.A 523 & 528 - you're correct - batteries were equipped with canons: 6 x 155mm sK 418(f) (french designation Canon de 155 GPF mle.1917) (see link: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... used-them/)

I don't believe any of the three H.K.A.A. present with Arko 104 were equipped with the 15.5cm sFH 414(f) during Crusader. The article you mention here raises the issue of their use by the Germans in NA, but CM's post of 7-23-09 (in "The Crusader Project" article) indicates the H.K.A.A. 533 was equipped with the 15.5cm sK 418(f) when it arrived there, and even Andreas (post of 9-8-09) acknowledges the abteilung had the sK 418(f) in mid-November, and that the howitzers only showed up sometime later. Of course, H.K.A.A. 529 was still in Italy in November.
Consequently, it would not be reasonable to list the sFH 414 (f) in any H.K.A.A. units in a OOB for Crusader.

David R

[David W]

David. Good point, well spotted!

the H.K.A.A. 533 was equipped with the 15.5cm sK 418(f) when it arrived there, and even Andreas (post of 9-8-09) acknowledges the abteilung had the sK 418(f) in mid-November, and that the howitzers only showed up sometime later.

Was it ever established how many showed up, when, and who got them?

[dor1941]

Not that I know of.

[Urmel]

I've done a check:
- H.K.A.A 523 & 528 - you're correct - batteries were equipped with canons: 6 x 155mm sK 418(f) (french designation Canon de 155 GPF mle.1917) (see link: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... used-them/)

I don't believe any of the three H.K.A.A. present with Arko 104 were equipped with the 15.5cm sFH 414(f) during Crusader. The article you mention here raises the issue of their use by the Germans in NA, but CM's post of 7-23-09 (in "The Crusader Project" article) indicates the H.K.A.A. 533 was equipped with the 15.5cm sK 418(f) when it arrived there, and even Andreas (post of 9-8-09) acknowledges the abteilung had the sK 418(f) in mid-November, and that the howitzers only showed up sometime later. Of course, H.K.A.A. 529 was still in Italy in November.
Consequently, it would not be reasonable to list the sFH 414 (f) in any H.K.A.A. units in a OOB for Crusader.

David R

Correct to some extent. It depends on when you set the end date of CRUSADER. They certainly weren't equipped with them at the start.

Who got them is still unclear to some extent. But I believe information on when and how many was previously provided.

Just came across an ULTRA intercept that states that on 17/11/41 4 of these guns left Tripoli for the front. They weren't the first ones though.

[jurisnik]

Hi guys!

Sorry for being absent for some time, but I've been quite busy in preparing my strategy game for initial release. I've released today and am eager to fight some battles in Western Desert Campaign

You were very helpful. Your feedback was better than I expected, and I'm deeply grateful for the time you've put into compiling this OOB.

If you like, you can check how I used different OOBs in creating game scenarios: http://forum.ironcrosswargame.com/viewforum.php?f=10

Now, I know they are not completely correct. But I'm hoping to get feedback from players and to make these scenarios as close as I can to real thing. I'll also include Scenario Editor - with tools to import OOBs from text files, and to create textual OOBs from the data.

If you have time you can check the game as well: http://www.ironcrosswargame.com/

Thanx again and see you soon! Bye,

Tom

[dor1941]

Since none of the British or CW Official Histories show an OOB with many details for 13th Corps, I'll offer this view.

13th CORPS: Lieutenant-General A.R. Godwin-Austen
Brigadier General Staff: Brigadier A.F. Harding

Corps Troops
64th Medium Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 16 6" howitzers)
67th Medium Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 16 6" howitzers)
One heavy anti-aircraft regiment plus one battery R.A.
Three light anti-aircraft batteries R.A.

4th Indian Division: Major-General F.W. Messervy
Central India Horse (3 squadrons) (less carrier squadron)
A Squadron 6th S.A. Armoured Car Regiment (M-H armoured cars)
1st Field Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
25th Field Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
31st Field Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
68th Medium Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 8 4.5" guns and 8 6" howitzers)
57th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment R.A. (3 batteries with 40mm Bofors)
65th Anti-Tank Regiment R.A. (3 batteries with 2-pdrs)
257th Anti-Tank Battery R.A. (2-pdrs)
2nd S.A. Anti-Tank Regiment (4 batteries with 2-pdrs and 75mm/18-pdrs)
Bengal Sappers and Miners (4 companies)

5th Indian Infantry Brigade: Brigadier D. Russell
1st Bn, The Buffs (The Royal East Kent Regiment)
3rd Bn, 1st Punjab Regiment
4th Bn, 6th Rajputana Rifles

7th Indian Infantry Brigade: Brigadier H.R. Briggs
1st Bn, The Royal Sussex Regiment
4th Bn, 16th Punjab Regiment
4th Bn, 11th Sikh Regiment

11th Indian Infantry Brigade: Brigadier A. Anderson
2nd Bn, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
2nd Bn, 5th Mahratta Light Infantry
1st Bn, 6th Rajputana Rifles

New Zealand Division (2nd N.Z.E.F.): Major-General B.C. Freyberg
(according to their own Official History for Crusader (p. 526), "The correct designation was simply the New Zealand Division, changed in 1942 to 2nd N.Z. Division..."
G.S.O. 1: Lieutenant-Colonel W. Gentry
New Zealand Divisional Cavalry Regiment (3 squadrons with carriers and 28 Lt. Mk. VIB tanks)
4th N.Z. Field Regiment (3 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
5th N.Z. Field Regiment (3 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
6th N.Z. Field Regiment (3 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
7th N.Z. Anti-Tank Regiment (4 batteries with 48 2-pdrs and 16 75mm/18-pdrs)
14th N.Z. Anti-Aircraft Regiment (40mm Bofors)
6th, 7th and 8th N.Z. Field and 5th N.Z. Field Park Companies
27th N.Z. Machine-Gun Battalion (48 Vickers MMG)
28th (Maori) Battalion

4th New Zealand Infantry Brigade: Brigadier L.M. Inglis
18th N.Z. Battalion
19th N.Z. Battalion
20th N.Z. Battalion

5th New Zealand Infantry Brigade: Brigadier J. Hargest
21st N.Z. Battalion
22nd N.Z. Battalion
23rd N.Z. Battalion

6th New Zealand Infantry Brigade: Brigadier H.E. Barrowclough
24th N.Z. Battalion
25th N.Z. Battalion
26th N.Z. Battalion

1st Army Tank Brigade: Brigadier H.R.B. Watkins
Headquarters (1 Cr. Mk. IVA and 2 Cr. Mk. VI Crusader tanks)
8th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 52 Inf. Mk. III Valentine and 6 Inf. Mk. II Matilda CS tanks)
42nd Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 48 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and 7 Lt. Mk. VIC tanks)
44th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 50 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and 7 Lt. Mk. VIC tanks)
(the battalion tank numbers are cited by Brad Hunter in a post on this Forum)
8th Field Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 16 25-pdrs)
Squadron Central India Horse
One troop light anti-aircraft

David R

[Urmel]

I believe 64 Medium was in Syria or Palestine, not in the WD.

CIH - one asquadron carriers, two with truckss. No ACs.

[David W]

I thought that the 64th Medium had a brief sojourn in the W.D at this time (11/41 - 02/42).
Having been away since 04/41.
But I am not 100% sure.

[dor1941]

The Royal Artillery 1939-45 website says the 64th Medium was with 8th Army in Dec 41 at Mersa Matruh, and that its 211 Battery took part in the investment of Bardia that month. Also, JonS posted notes from Denis Falvey's book confirming the regt was with 8th Army then (in the 7th Medium Regt topic).
Agreed no arm'd cars in the CIH-I didn't say there were any.

David R

[Urmel]

64 Medium definitely were not in the WD on 4/11/41. I don't think (but will check) they arrived there by 17/11 either.

http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/20 ... uary-1942/

I know you didn't say anything on ACs for CIH. Just wanted to make that explicit.

[dor1941]

Also, the Lone Sentry.com site notes the presence at Bardia of the 67th Medium Regiment R.A. and the 234th Battery of the 64th. Perhaps some confusion about which battery of the 64th was there (?)

I've got many cross-referenced items in notes that appear to be conflicting. Why couldn't Auchinleck be kind enough to explain what he was doing?
I suppose he figured he'd leave the future generations of researchers something to do!

David R

[Urmel]

I'll pull the WD of 64 Medium when I go to Kew next time to settle this.

[Urmel]

1st Army Tank Brigade: Brigadier H.R.B. Watkins
Headquarters (1 Cr. Mk. IVA and 2 Cr. Mk. VI Crusader tanks)
8th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 52 Inf. Mk. III Valentine and 6 Inf. Mk. II Matilda CS tanks)
42nd Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 48 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and 7 Lt. Mk. VIC tanks)
44th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 50 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and 7 Lt. Mk. VIC tanks)
(the battalion tank numbers are cited by Brad Hunter in a post on this Forum)
8th Field Regiment R.A. (2 batteries with 16 25-pdrs)
Squadron Central India Horse
One troop light anti-aircraft

David R

I think Brad maybe wrong. 1 Army Tank Brigade WD states that on 11 Nov. C Sqdn 42 RTR was not equipped, and the regiment joined Brigade without it. On 17 November, the regiment, minus C Squadron, moved up to the wire. So you are probably looking at an actual strength of 32 Mk.II and 5 Mk. VI (I seriously doubt they were all 'C' version BTW, see the other thread on the specific issue).

The squadron CIH was the carrier squadron, apparently.

LAA was C Trp., 170 Battery, 57 LAA Rgt.

[dor1941]

You're probably correct in suggesting Brad's figures of tanks is inaccurate. I understood the source was British Armies of WW 2: An Organizational History.., Hughes, et. al., and would much prefer to see some original documentation for the brigade strength.

Thanks for identifying the lone troop of Bofors guns

David R

[Urmel]

Found it. C Sqdrn 42 RTR joined Brigade on 25 November.