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Taken at Nuremburg, Germany, 11 September
1945, 1435-1535, by Colonel Howard A. Brundage, JAGD, OUSCC
Also present: Siegfried Ramler, Interpreter and
S/Sgt. Horace M. Levy, Court Reporter
Q. Will you state your full name?
A. Alfred Helmut Naujocks
Q. How old are you?
Q. Are you married?
Q. Do you have any children?
Q. Are they still alive?
A. Yes, I hope so.
Q. Are you a member of the party?
A. I used to be.
Q. When did you join?
Q. How long did you belong?
A. I was a member of the party until 1941.
Q. Why did you leave?
A. I was degraded from SS Sturmbannführer to an ordinary SS man because of
differences in opinion I had with Heydrich.
Q. And that was in 1941?
A. That was in 1940. It was the end of 1940 and the beginning of 1941 that I was downgraded.
Q. You mean that you were put out of the Party?
A. I was probably excluded from the Party because of loss of interest and also because I did
not pay any more dues.
Q. But you were still a member of the SS, weren’t you?
A. I was not excluded from the SS, although I begged for it. I should have been sent to what
was called “The Lost Group.” It was a punishment battalion of Waffen SS; and it was
always thought that 90 percent of those who belonged to it met their end. It was the easiest
method of getting rid of anybody.
Q. Well, was it a fact that 90 percent in that group did meet their end?
A. As far as the results, as they were told to me, it was 90 percent.
Q. How did they meet their end?
A. They were taken for special participation in battle, on very dangerous fronts, where everyone thought they would never return.
Q. But they met death by enemy action, did they?
A. Yes, normally through enemy action.
Q. Well, did they meet their death in any other way?
A. Being sworn in, I cannot say that under oath. These are just rumors I may have heard
Q. But at that time, you felt, did you, that actually you were being condemned to death when
you were being assigned to this particular outfit?
A. This was the wish of Heydrich, and Heydrich wanted to get rid of me in an elegant sort of
way. Seeing that I had very good personal knowledge, having occupied a leading post, I
could only save myself by putting myself behind SS-Obergruppenführer Berger, from SS
Q. And that was in 1941?
A. Yes, that was in 1941.
Q. Did you feel that such a sentence was justified in your case?
A. No, there had been no sentence at all. Heydrich did not want to put me in front of a court, because I could have proved my innocence in front of a court. I had various witnesses to prove that I was not guilty. Even my chief at that time could have been a witness. Until today, none of these witnesses have been heard.
Q. Well, you were a pretty fortunate man, weren’t you, because Heydrich never paid much attention to justice?
A. One of the main reasons why I appeared superfluous to Heydrich, was because I did not want to bend under his will. I was one of the few of his subordinates whom he could not bend to his will. All the rest of them used to prostrate themselves before him. I used to be considered as one who lacked discipline because I often voiced my opinion.
Q. What schooling have you had?
A. Do you mean my school education?
A. Upper secondary school.
Q. And what did you do?
A. For two years I learned a trade, surgical and orthopedic mechanic.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. After that I did construction of motors for two years. I passed my test in motor construction, motor mechanics and so on, Then I was in business --- this was just the time of the big unemployment period in Germany---- and then I did all sorts of things, I was in all sorts of businesses and trades. When I entered the SS then, I was not quite 20 years old. It was in 1931.
Q. Well now, how did you enter the SS?
A. It was very peculiar how I entered it. I had bought a little motorcycle, and I went to a tradesman and bought a little flag for it. I bought a flag with a swastika on it, without having ever busied myself with politics before. The flag was a very nice combination of color, black, white, red, and I put it on my motorcycle; and before I rode 200 meters, I was thrown from the motorcycle and hit very badly; and I ended up lying on the pavement. Then I tried to find out why I was hit. At this time I entered the SS; and at that time there were only two radical differences, either completely right or completely left, either Bolshevism or the SS; and so, as I say, I entered the SS: and I must say that the ideals that were preached to us then were quite right, if everything had turned out that way.
Q. That was in 1932?
Q. And you were in the SS, were you, from that time until the end of the war?
Q. Well now, in 1931 when you volunteered for the SS, what sort of training did you get?
A. No training.
Q. No training?
A. None. We only protected meetings. We made propaganda for elections. We posted placards.
Q. Were you in uniform at that time?
A. Only partly, because the uniform had been forbidden at that time.
Q. Well, how did you get paid?
A. I was never paid.
Q. Well, where did you live, in barracks?
A. No, I lived at home.
Q. How did you live?
A. From unemployment allowance, and from occasional little jobs that I handled.
Q. How long did that go on?
A. That went on until 1933.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Then I went to the German works in Kiel.
Q. And what did you do there?
A. I went through a course as a locomotive driver and crane driver; and after that I was an engine driver.
Q. Well, that was a civilian employment.
A. Yes, it was all civilian employment.
Q. I mean it had nothing to do with the SS.
A. No, nothing.
Q. How long did you have that job?
A. I cannot state the dates exactly. Then I was in a motor mechanic workshop as a workshop foreman, but that was only a very small firm, which was financially not strong enough, and it went bankrupt.
Q. Well. What did you do then?
A. I went to Berlin as a truck driver. This was later called “SD.” At that time, it had a different name. It was called “PI”; that was “Political Information.” There I was employed as a truck driver, and it was the only post that was available. I accepted it because I had nothing else. I worked my way upwards. The task of the “PI” was the same task as the later called “SD.” It should really have been only a control organization for the Party itself, mainly acting against corruption in the Party leadership. This was the “PI,” and either in the summer or autumn of 1935, it was taken over and called the “SD-Oberabschnitt,” which means “Main Unit.”
Q. And when was that?
A. Summer or autumn, 1934.
Q. And how long did you hold that job?
A. Since this time, I was with the SD uninterruptedly since 1940.
Q. And what were you doing in that time?
A. I started to write stenography and do typewriting. I did registration, filing work, and then I became an advisor.
Q. That was in an office in Berlin?
Q. And was that a full-time job?
A. Yes, that was a full-time job. At the beginning, I earned 100 marks a month.
Q. In what department were you?
A. This went on without any plan. There was too little personnel to have put up a proper organization.
Q. Well, when did it become known as the “SD?”
A. That was either summer or autumn of 1934.
Q. Well, just what happened in the organization?
A. Heydrich had come from Munich at that time. Heydrich at that time built up the security service all over the Reich. And I think at that time PI was taken over into SD.
Q. Was the membership voluntary?
A. Certainly, yes. After it was taken over into the SD, we would have been excluded if we did not want to agree to it.
Q. You mean as a member of the PI?
Q. When it became the SD, then you just automatically went over into the SD, is that right?
A. We automatically went on.
Q. Well, how did the SD secure its personnel, its members?
A. The SD had no members at all. It was a new development which came from Heydrich, and the PI, for the most part, had members of the General SS.
Q. Well, when the SD came into existence, did the PI continue, or was it, merely absorbed by the SD?
A. Yes, it had been absorbed by the SD.
Q. Do you know how many people worked for the PI at the time the SD took over?
A. That I cannot say at all, because at that time I was a truck driver, and I had no insight into these matters.
Q. Well, what do you mean when you say “Heydrich built up the SD all over Germany?
A. That Heydrich looked all over the Reich for people that had a good education, and certain followers behind them already. He made promises to those people, and asked them to take over this job and go into his organization.
Q. And how did they go in, by application?
A. That I cannot say.
Q. Well, was there a commission given to these people when they came in?
A. I think, especially now that I have got to know Heydrich, that he probably lured these people by all different methods.
Q. Was it necessary to take an oath?
Q. Who was the oath to?
A. Adolf Hitler.
Q. Was it a full-time paying job?
Q. And were they given uniforms.
A. No, we had to pay for those ourselves.
Q. But they did wear a uniform.
A. Yes, we had worn uniforms.
Q. Who paid them?
A. The Party paid them.
Q. Did the Government assist in any way?
A. No not at that time.
Q. Do you know whether or not there was any charter issued by the government to the SD, as an organization?
A. Not from the government. I want to tell you my conception of the SD. The tasks of the SD and the so-called Secret State Police were principally the same. The SD had to work on things as an information service, while the Secret State Police was the executive organism. Heydrich was the chief of both these organizations. As difficulties between both of these organizations came into view continually, it was typical of Heydrich and Himmler to play one organization against the other. Since we were only paid by the Party, the Secret State Police was a clear state affair.
Q. And paid by the state?
A. And paid by the state. All their personnel were state officials.
Q. And all of the personnel of the SD were Party Members?
A. All should have been, but not all of them actually were, because Heydrich also obtained people that had been refused Party admittance; and those were usually people that the Party didn’t want. Heydrich only took them for the reason that they were merely dependent upon him, and this is why he wanted them.
Q. Well, was there duplication of work between the State Police and the SD?
A. Practically, yes.
Q. Now in 1934, did Hitler abolish all intelligence services except the SD?
Q. Did he do that at any time?
A. According to my knowledge, Hitler never concerned himself with these things----that I only found out in prison in London, during conferences I had there-----until after the 20th of July, after the attempted assassination on him.
Q. What was that?
A. After the attempt on his life.
Q. Well now, to whom did Heydrich report?
A. Heydrich was a so-called political businessman. He gave reports or held back reports, according to his policy, towards different people.
Q. And to whom would he give those reports?
A. Really, it should have been his duty to give all reports, which went out from the Security Police, to the different competent ministries.
Q. But actually, Hitler was head of the Party, and therefore the supreme head of the SD.
A. Hitler, according to my opinion, had never concerned himself about the SD, not even as much as a fingernail. As far as I heard personally, from peoples’ conversations, Hitler had refused to have anything to do with work connected with information services.
Q. Well, was membership in the SD voluntary?
A. Always voluntary, that is, until one got in there; afterwards, it wasn’t.
Q. But was there ever any time when there was a conscription?
A. Never in the SD. That has never happened.
Q. Now, were members of the SD exempt from military service?
A No, there have been many cases, and probably in your practice you may have come across them quite often, but I want to tell you, there have been cases, where Himmler forced people, blackmailed people, through a roundabout way of calling them into the Waffen SS just like any other German. He had then drafted them as soldiers into the Waffen-SS, and then told them, “You don’t have to go to the front. Your war effort will be in the work of the SD.”
Q. But then it would take a volunteer?
A. Not necessarily. I wanted to get out of the SS in 1938, or else out of the SD, because I knew one day I would break off with Heydrich completely, and my chief at that time, Jost, who is in prison in Oberursel. At that time, a note came out that SS volunteers could go over to the Luftwaffe. If I’m not mistaken, Göring carried that out against the wish of Himmler. At that time, Göring was still very powerful. But Himmler had said that anybody who went over to the Luftwaffe voluntarily would be automatically excluded from the SS. Four times I tried to go this way, and on the fourth time I was told by Heydrich that if I made an application like that another time, he would take disciplinary proceedings against me. I had already arranged everything with the Air Ministry, and I already had all my schooling planned out.
Q. Now, I want to find out when you got into the personnel department of the SD.
A. I was never in the personnel department.
Q. Well, then did you get into the identification and filing section?
A. That had never happened in the chief office. That was over in the Oberabschnitt, which is the Chief Sector. But I can frankly tell you that everything that had been done in the Chief sector is not of the greatest importance now.
Q. How many members were in the SD?
A. That I cannot tell you. The SD consisted of people who were employed full time, such as I, and the approximate number of the membership of the SD, you can only get if you can get somebody from the administration office of the SD’s Chief Office, who can tell you how many persons the personnel numbered.
Q. Well, was it a large number or a small number?
A. I think it was a large number.
Q. Well, wasn’t it possible for Heydrich to secure all these people himself?
A. No, this is completely out of the question. Heydrich knew only a fraction of the people.
Q. Well, how did they go about getting their people?
A. The biggest part of the membership of the SD occupied an honorary office, and I can tell you from my own experiences, that a large section of the population tried to win certain influences over the ways of the SD.
Q. Well, were the functions of the SD always the same, or did they enlarge as time went on?
A. The functions were always the same in principle. They had not become any larger.
Q. Well, can you enumerate what those functions were?
A. May I ask a question?
A. In London, I drew up a chart about all working organizations, and it must be together with my files. After having worked on it for weeks, I wrote it out in detail.
Q. Well, maybe we can get that, but until we do, just tell me briefly what the work of the SD was?
A. The SD had as its duty the gathering of all information from below, and giving it up to the high places, that is information about cultural work that was ordered from above, social work, and so on. It was their function to get and assemble the opinions of the people, and transmit it back to the higher quarters.
Q. What do you mean by “higher quarters?”
A. The Reich Ministries.
Q. Well, it was the job of the SD to control Party meetings, wasn’t it?
A. They had charge of the information of all economic, cultural, and political life, and they had to transmit it to the various ministries above.
Q. Did they have much contact with other organizations, such as the Gestapo?
A. I, myself, had comparatively little contact with the Gestapo.
Q. No, I am talking about the SD.
A. For instance, the advisor who worked on Communism with the SD, should really have worked together with the advisor of the Secret State Police, who worked on Communism.
Q. Well now, there was the flow the other way. Were there orders to be executed, coming from above, down below?
A. On the whole, Heydrich was interested in seeing that there was none too close cooperation between the Gestapo and the SD, because then it was very much easier for him to get hold of all the information that came in, and he was then also able to play out one party against each other.
Q. Now, I have another appointment, and I would like to have you be prepared to tell me the various things that the SD did in the educational the cultural and the political side.
A. It is very hard for me to tell you that in a responsible way, because for instance, I never worked in the cultural department.
Q. But you do know that if there were any plays in theatres that were not acceptable to the Party, it would be members of the SD that would stop the play.
A. No, the SD could not do that. That could only be done through the Secret State Police. The SD could only give information about the play, and could give their comments.
Q. Well, you be prepared to tell me what you know about it, even though it may not be entirely authoritative on your part.
Q. Now in our talks here, I want you to know that I all am looking for are facts, and those things you are sure of, you can say so, and you can merely mention those things you are not entirely sure about.
A. In London, I made a clear difference about the things that I actually know, which are actual facts, and about things which I could only think of as being highly probable.
Q. Do you know a General Karl Wolff?
A. Yes. It is the Wolff of the personal staff of Himmler?
A. I only know him in a very casual way. I can only give you the opinion of people that were in his surroundings, and the impression that I had from them.
Q. What was that opinion?
A. I do not have a very good opinion of him.
Q. Do you know Daluege?
A. I only know he is not quite normal. He is syphilitic.
Q. Well, I would like to talk to you about those two men, so give some thought to that.
(Whereupon at 1535, 11 September 1945, the hearing was adjourned.)
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I would like to share a this interview by just linking to the online source but the subscription requirement makes that impossible. The image files of the typewritten page are also too large to post here. (3 MG Per page)
Image files were run through Optical Character Reader software, cleaned up laboriously and presented via cut and paste below.
After hours of this, Naujocks strikes me as an obfuscating thug who seems entirely at home in an interrogation room. I'd welcome any other insights.
Is there ANY truth to this "Lost Group" he claims Heydrich was forcing him into?
Testimony of ALFRED NAUJOCKS
Taken at Nuremberg, Germany,
On 12 September 1945 by
COL. HOWARD A. BRUNDAGE, JAGD, OUSCC
Reporter: Nancy M. Shields, BCV
Interpreter: Siegfried Ramler
QUESTIONS BY COL BRUNDAGE THROUGH INTERPRETER:
Q. What is your full name?
A. Alfred Naujocks.
Q. You are the same Alfred Naujocks who appeared before me yesterday?
Q. Do you understand that you are still testifying under oath?
Q. At our last hearing you were discussing the organization of the SD.
Q. At the close of the war, what was your position?
A. Ever since January, 1941, I have not been in the SD any more.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was a soldier for two years in Russia and from September, 1942, until the first part of September, 1944, I was an official in the military administration in Belgium.
Q. Beginning at the time when SD absorbed the PI, tell me from that point on, what positions you held?
A. The first positions I held were of a clear technical nature. At first I was a truck driver; then I learned how to type and write stenography. I was a clerk in the office.
Q. When and where was that?
A. That was in Berlin and the service post was called SD Main Unit East. This Main Unit East was formed for questions concerning Berlin, for Kreis Berlin, Kreis Potsdam and Kreis Brandenberg. My technical position which I had never left, was called “Defense” and this was in Department 3.
Q. How long did you have that position?
A. This position in the Main Unit East I held until shortly before the beginning of the war.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. From there I went into the chief office but in the very same department. There were always changes of organization there. This was the last change and then the Office 6 was formed.
Q. That is the Foreign Intelligence?
A. Yes. It was also called Foreign Office Foreign Countries.
Q. When was that?
A. This must have been about parallel to the beginning of the war.
Q. About the end of 1939?
A. Yes, probably. I don’t recall the exact date.
Q. What were your duties?
A. At first my task was to make some political information service for the south-eastern countries.
Q. Who was your chief?
A. I had two chiefs. My first was Dr. Filbert and the office chief of Office 6 was Jost.
Q. Did you work with a team or did you work alone with that job?
A. No, I had a few co-workers, who were always changed in the course of the changes of the organization.
Q. Who did Jost report to?
A. Jost had to report to Heydrich.
Q. What was your actual work in that position?
A. There was really no question of any practical work because, to be truthful, I have to say that the SD really didn’t know any foreign work. Our first task was to organize people who knew something about different countries?
Q. Just shortly before the invasion of Poland, did you have anything to do with the creation of a border incident?
A. At that time, it was my task to construct an attack on the broadcasting station Gleiwitz.
Q. Let’s start at the beginning, and let me refer you to a conversation you had with Heydrich in the beginning of August, 1939.
A. Yes. I want to say first that all these things that I am going to tell about now do not fall in with my task in Office 6.
Q. We are going back to Office 6 later.
A. All these things that were done were an action that Heydrich personally managed, together with Müller.
Q. On the instructions of Hitler?
A. I cannot say that with certainty but I think it highly probable.
Q. Where did you meet Heydrich, first?
A. In his office, in Berlin; in the Secret State Police Office.
Q. It was the beginning of August?
A. (Pause) It must have been about the 10th.
Q. Who was present at that conversation?
A. Nobody was present; Heydrich was alone.
Q. Were you summoned to his office by Heydrich?
A. I had received an order to appear.
Q. What time of day was that?
A. That I cannot say with certainty.
Q. It was during the day, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, it was during the day.
Q. When you went into Heydrich’s Office, what did he say and what did you say?
A. I cannot give you the conversation word for word.
Q. As near as you remember..
A. I must add that as long as I was in the SD I belonged to a very low grade there.
Q. That has nothing to do with this conversation. Just tell me as near as you remember what the conversation was with Heydrich.
A. This has been carried through in the form of an order. There is no talk about a conversation.
Q. Tell me what he said as near as you remember.
A. Heydrich gave me the order to go with five or six people to Gleiwitz, which was clean German territory, not border. He said that practical proof for foreign press is necessary for the attack on Poland and that he counted on an outbreak of war between Germany and Poland within the next few days. It was my task to demonstrate an attack and make it on the broadcasting station in Gleiwitz and to make a speech in Polish on to the Polish minorities in Silesia. That was no clean border incident like another one to which I shall come later. This was only done for the reason of leading the press astray but I know about the different story that really constituted a border incident.
Q. We will get to that later. Just tell me now what Heydrich said at that meeting.
A. Heydrich gave me the order to go to Gleiwitz, to wait for a pass-word which I was told and I had to be at the disposal any minute for the carrying out of this action and I should carry out this action only after hearing the pass-word, which would come from Heydrich directly. I had to wait quite some time; the matter was drawn out further than I expected, which was probably due to the conferences about Poland and to the meddling of the English in the Polish question. So that, at the end, I personally didn’t believe that anything would happen at all. After approximately 14 days I asked if I could return to Berlin, Then I was told by Heydrich that I had to stop and wait.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. In Gleiwitz.
Q. That was about 24th August?
A. Yes, when I wanted to return to Berlin.
Q. I am not clear as to exactly what you were supposed to do there at the radio station.
A. The question was to make a speech in Polish through the broadcasting station in Gleiwitz in order to incite a rising of the Polish minorities who were situated in Upper Silesia.
Q. Were you supposed to make the speech?
A. No, one had to do it that spoke Polish.
Q. Did you have a man who was supposed to make that speech with you?
A. No. He was put at my disposal and he was told to me as a competent man from the Main Unit that happened to be there. It was a German who spoke Polish.
Q. Was that a German broadcasting station?
Q. What would be so difficult about having somebody talk in Polish over that station?
A. It should be represented this way, as if Polish minorities had attacked this broadcasting station by force. In Gleiwitz there were a number of Poles whose citizenship was Polish.
Q. In other words, you were to represent yourself as Poles.
Q. Then you and your men had to attack the radio station.
Q. And were supposed to seize the radio station and then make the speech.
Q. Did you understand that the people working at the station knew the plan?
A. No, they knew nothing about it.
Q. Were you to put on Polish uniforms?
Q. In civilian clothes?
Q. But that never happened?
A. Oh yes, it happened, but I don’t think it was ever published. It was more done to demonstrate Polish guilt.
Q. But when did that happen?
A. That happened exactly one day before the outbreak of the war.
Q. About the 30th of August?
A. About the 31st of August, I received the pass-word.
Q. From whom?
Q. What did you do then?
A. And then I demonstrated the attack and had the speech broadcast.
Q. Tell me what did happen. What did you do and what did your men do?
A. I sent our Reconnaissance to find out how much personnel was at the broadcasting station and then I found out that this station had very few personnel, as it was only a minor station, near Breslau. It really had no program of its own but was only transmitted from Breslau. So when I really saw the nearer circumstances, it seemed very unimportant to me.
Q. You just walked in and took over?
A. As we didn’t know the technicalities, we just took one emergency microphone and spoke over that. Afterwards I received complaints from Heydrich because Heydrich at that time sat down near his radio apparatus, put on Gleiwitz in order to hear the effect and he himself couldn’t hear anything in Berlin at his radio apparatus because the wavelength was covered over by Breslau. So that when I gave the repor that I carried through his order, he wanted to imprison me because he thought I was lying to him. The only proof that I could show that we really carried through this action was that a report was made to the police authorities there that an attack was made on the station and that Polish was spoken.
Q. What was the substance of this Polish speech?
A. It was just an inciting speech and in substance it meant now the time had come for the conflict between the Germans and the Poles and the Poles should gather and wherever they received any resistance from the Germans, should merely smash them down.
Q. How long did that last?
A. The speech?
A. 3 to 4 minutes, perhaps.
Q. How long were you and your men there?
A. In the stations?
A. Perhaps 20 minutes.
Q. Then what did you do? Did you leave?
A. Then I went back to Berlin and reported to Heydrich and he told me that I had lied and that the action didn’t really take place.
Q. When Heydrich told you to do this job, did he mention anybody else’s name beside Hitler?
A. In principle, whenever Heydrich carried out any special measures he always used the name of the Führer. And that was because there were lots of people like me who didn’t have the confidence and respect of him as he wanted them to have and he wanted to root out any thoughts that anyone might have that this was a personal matter and only concerned himself. I think that this also was the case here.
Q. Did he mention the name of Ribbentrop?
A. I can’t say it with certainty but I believe he did. I want now to give my personal opinion.
Q. Is that opinion based on any facts?
A. Only on my knowledge. I know the relationship very well, between Heydrich and Himmler. I also knew from different SS leaders that relationship of Himmler to Hitler and I want to say that Himmler would never have carried out anything that was against the intentions of Hitler. At no time, not even at the last minute, and I know, too, that Heydrich would never have dared to demonstrate any such actions as this one, the Polish action to which I shall come later, if he had not been covered by Himmler and if Himmler had not been covered by Hitler, because at that time the conferences between Hitler, Ribbentrop, England and Poland, In such a case like that, Heydrich would never have carried out any action like that this one without the knowledge of Hitler and in this connection hardly without the knowledge of Ribbentrop, either.
Q. Who prepared the speech that was going to be made over the radio?
A. I was told by Heydrich himself (only in substance because Heydrich does not speak Polish himself) what should be mentioned in the speech.
Q. You told the man who was giving the speech.
Q. Did you leave any evidence in the station that you had been there?
A. Now I want to mention the part that Mueller played in this connection and the thing that is coming now is also the basic reason why I tried to withdraw myself from the whole affair. Mueller himself had his quarters in Oppen which is in Upper Silesia. I would have to look at a map to see how many klilometres it was apart. I estimated between the 26th and 31st of August , I don’t know the exact date. I received the order to report in Oppen to Müller. I went there and there was present Müller and, if I am not mistaken, a certain Melhorn.
Q. What Müller was there?
A. I regret not having read his name in this prison. That is the man that led the Secret State Police.
Q. That is, the Gestapo?
A. Yes, if you do not get this man, the main part of your work is for nothing because he is the man that carried out everything that Heydrich wanted. I don’t know any such man that had such diabolical and devilish ideas as Heydrich had. Mueller declared to me in this conversation that in any case, for the benefit of the demonstration, that there should be human sacrifices placed there for the benefit of the proof of the matter and he said that for this purpose we were to have people who had already been got ready, who had been sentenced to a life sentence.
Q. This was before the radio demonstration?
A. Yes, that was at the time when I had wanted to return to Berlin and I received the order to wait there. At the time, I waited for the pass-word and I was told then that these people who were under life sentences should remain there and at the very same time I also heard them converse about this different action.
Q. That was Müller and who else?
A. That was Müller and Mehlhorn.
Q. And the people under life sentences, who did they mean by that?
A. Müller at that time told me that they were professional gangsters, murderers who had been sentenced to death and their sentences reprieved to life. I was told to take one of these men along who should remain in the station and that he would put this man at my disposal at the right time and he told me that he is giving me the order from Heydrich to leave this man at the station. As I was witness of the conversation between Mueller and, I think it was Mehlhorn, I can tell you about this other border incident because I was witness when the conversation occurred about it,
Q. Let us finish up about this other one here first.
Q. Did they furnish you the man?
A. Yes, I got this man.
Q. What happened?
A. War broke out I think on 1st September, and on the 31st August, at noon, I received the order that in the evening at exactly 8:00 o’clock, the attack on the broadcasting station would have to be carries through. That was given through to me by Heydrich personally, by way of telephone by the pass-word, naturally. Then he told me personally, “For the purpose of carrying the plan through, report to Mueller,” and he used the expression “For the canned goods,” and “Canned Goods” was Mueller’s name for the people that should remain there. Heydrich had a doctor, I don’t know his name exactly, and this doctor gave an injection to these people and they were then unconscious and then these people had a shot wound which was not deadly…..
Q. How many people?
A. I only received one but I know that Mueller and Mehlhorn talked about several that should be used at this different action. If I am not mistaken there were twelve or thirteen peple that should have been used in different actions.
Q. But at the broadcast, only one was used?
A. Yes. Müller’s main action was the other story.
Q. Let us finish the broadcast story.
A. I telephoned to Mueller in Oppen and told him that I had talked to Heydrich and that I received the pass-word. Then Mueller told me, “You will get this man at the broadcasting station Gleiwitz at exactly 8:00, “and he asked me to tell him exactly what place I wanted to receive this man. I told him I couldn’t say that straight away but I would have to go and see the locality of the buildings. I went back to the broadcasting station and chose a point which was very close to the broadcasting station. I telephoned Mueller again to Oppen and told him to send this man to this and this point. I have not mentioned before that the injection this man received acted deadly after 5 hours. Then, if any members of the press were led to the place, they would always have found a dead man and as an expert the same doctor carried out the function that actually gave injections, which was Heydrich’s doctor.
Q. Do you know his name?
A. If I would hear the name and if you would perhaps give me 20 names of doctors that would come into question, immediately I would be able to find it.
Q. He was Heydrich’s personal doctor?
A. Yes. One cannot say personal doctor; Heydrich was a hypochondriac who ate tablets all day long and asked for all sorts of doctors.
Q. Do you know where he lived, this doctor, or where he had his office?
A. He was a doctor for the SS and he was a Saxon because his pronunciation was Saxon.
Q. Where was he stationed at the time?
A. He worked in Berlin in the Gestapo office and he worked on bacteriological things for Heydrich which I refused later on to do in my office, when I took over the technical department. When I was asked to carry through these bacteriological things, I refused.
Q. What happened after that? Did you get this man?
A. I got this man and I laid him down outside at the entrance of the station. This man was alive but he was completely unconscious. I tried to open his eyes. I couldn’t recognize he was alive from his eyes, only by his breathing. I didn’t see the shot wound but a lot of blood was smeared across his face. I didn’t exactly look at him because it was dark and the sight was very shocking.
Q. When was he shot?
A. I couldn’t say that exactly.
Q. The hypodermic, then, had nothing to do with the shooting?
A. No, I think this was just Müller’s “humane” idea.
Q. Did he have any identification papers put in his clothes?
A. I cannot say, because I didn’t have anything to do with this. Müller had an expert commission ready that waited for the moment to appear and to write the police report.
Q. Was it part of the plan hat he was supposed to be a German or a Pole?
A. He should have represented a pole but he certainly was not a Pole. He was a Geman.
Q. But the plan was he should be a Pole?
A. It should look like that. That is, it should look as if he was wounded in the attack. It was our order that we should shoot a few pistols when leaving the station, so that Heydrich was able to report that immediately after the attempt, police forces were ready and tried to check it.
Q. What do you think was the idea of Heydrich telling you that---that you had failed at your job?
A. The reason for that is in Heydrich’s nature. Heydrich’s most outstanding characteristic besides his conceit was a suspicion that he had against everybody.
Q. But didn’t Mueller make a report to Heydrich that this police action had taken place?
A. All that came much later because I went back to Berlin immediately after I carried through this action.
Q. Is it your idea that this same doctor shot this man?
A. I cannot say exactly whether this man was really shot or what. I only know from the conference that the plan should have been that because when I received the man he was completely dressed and I only saw his head was smeared with blood. I did not see any wound.
Q. So That all you know about it is what you have told?
A. I can only conclude that I found out that these incidents had been caused from the leadership in order to create war with Poland and for this reason I talked about this affair.
Q. This man was dressed in civilian clothes?
A. Yes. I suppose that he was given some Polish papers. I was witness at the conference about the other action and if I had not known about the other action, I would not have been able to tell you exactly about this one.
Q. What about the other one?
A. The other action was a regular border incident which has been published in some way. I myself haven’t heard of it being published but I know that at that time it was said that it should never be used officially. I don’t know it with any certainty. I found out at this conference that a large amount of members of the Security Police, not from the SD but from the State Police – this is a thing that Müller exclusively organized under him, and with whom they co-operated I can’t say But I know this was a procedure that was carried out with the approximate strength of a company. The exact place where it took place I could only tell you if you mention the name to me. Then immediately I would be able to tell exactly that it was there.
Q. Can you look at a map and identify it?
A, (looking at a map) I don’t think it will be there. In any case this matter dealt with the following: it should have been carried out with the strength of a company and immediately on the border. There a fight should have been demonstrated at which people should be found on German ground immediately on the German-Polish border, shot. People in Polish uniform should be found and for that Mueller needed these people and when they organized this thing, at that time Heydrich told Mueller that I should receive one of these people for my action, too, because this action naturally a certain strength of people. I must tell you that at the time the German and Polish troops were lying opposite one another on the border and whenever in any part of the German side, any shooting occurred; Mueller must have counted on it that from the German military side that he, himself, would be attacked from the German side. He and his company, because they would have seen people in Polish uniform on the other side. If they had seen German uniforms they would have come forward in order to help their comrades so according to my opinion, some kind of an agreement must have been formed with the Wehrmacht either from Heydrich or Himmler, in order to put some clearance into effect because otherwise, the Germans would shoot against other Germans and no propagandist value would have been achieved. I think it must have occurred that on the special part of the frontier, it must have been agreed that either the Wehrmacht should clear away from there or should not participate if anything occurred. As a further proof, it must be presupposed that there was also the agreement of Hitler because no commander of the Wehrmacht would have accepted any order from Heydrich to clear any part of the border, so there must have been an order from the Wehrmacht itself. This could not have been a subordinate Wehrmacht leader but must have been a very high Wehrmacht leader and afterwards I have found out that this fight had actually taken place, but only from hearsay.
Q. How did you find out?
A. I heard about it because I was interested and I asked about it and I asked what had actually materialized on this occasion.
Q. Who did you ask?
A. I asked Heydrich about 14 days or three weeks later. I asked how this affair had come to an end. Then he told me, “Better than yours.”
Q. What did happen there?
A. Responsively, I can only tell you what the plan was that I know out of the conference of Müller and Heydrich and since Heydrich informed me afterwards that it came to a better finish than mine, it probably ran according to plan.
Q. Did you ever hear them mention that these troops were being trained at an SS Fencing School in Bernau?
A. No, I cannot say that.
Q. Do you know when that happened?
A. This incident?
A. It must have been on the 31st of August.
Q. You mentioned first that this conversation was between Mueller and Mehlhorn?
Q. A little while ago you said Müller and Heydrich were talking about it?
A. Mueller and Heydrich? No. Heydrich was in Berlin.
Q. Then the plan you heard discussed was between Müller and Mehlhorn?
Q. I have the statement here of a man that was inducted into the police in July, 1939 and he had to report to the National Headquarters of the SS in Berlin.
A. May I ask a question? There is no National Headquarters of the SS.
Q. Is that in Munich?
A. There isn’t one that I know of at all.
Q. This says on Wilhelmstrasse.
A. In Wilhelmstrasse was the SD Chief Office, Number 102.
Q. From there he was brought to the SS Fencing School at Bernau.
A. In Bernau there was an SD School. There might have been a fencing course to it.
Q. Maybe this is a typographical error. It says SS.
A. I want to ask whether, if there are any incorrect things, whether I should draw your attention to them?
Q. Yes. For the record, this statement further says that this man joined a company dressed in Polish uniforms and simulated an attack on a border customs house in Hohenlinden on the night of August 30th. Do you believe that this incident is the same incident that Müller and Mehlhorn were discussing?
A. Yes, because I remember the name Hohenlinden.
Q. I think you said that at your first meeting with Heydrich he told you that Hitler intended to have the German army attack Poland within a matter of weeks?
A. I think I have said before that Heydrich told me that he thinks that a clash between the German and Polish armies is unavoidable within a short time and immediately after that I had to go to Gleiwitz and therefore I suspected that the war with Poland should occur far earlier than 1st September .
Q. That talk you had with Heydrich was on 10th August, wasn’t it?
A. 10th August, yes.
Q. Did he say at that time anything about Hitler’s intentions?
A. No. He told me at that time that the Führer needed material for the clash with Poland.
Q. By “material” he meant, did he, the Polish Border incident?
Q. While the war in Poland started about the 2nd of December, didn’t it?
A. On the 1st.
Q. Did you participate in any other incidents of this kind with any other countries?
Q. There was no connection between you and the invasion of other countries?
A. I was guilty of a border failing which occurred with English officers in Holland. A border failing or a border crime.
Q. Did you participate in making any demonstrations in foreign countries?
Q. Did you assist in any way with the minority groups?
A. No, We naturally had information service connection with the minority groups. At that time little shock formations were built up with only two used for the Slovaks but this doesn’t actually fit into the plan. It is something about some disturbances that occurred between Slovaks and Czechs..
Q. Whose department was that in? Under whom were these shock groups formed?
A. That has not been done from the German side. Material has been given over the borders by SD men in the Main Units which were near the borders and little explosive bodies, (Interpreter: When I said “shock formations” before, he meant explosive bodies,) smuggled over the border. That has nothing to do with matter such as these.
Q. What then, was the Czechoslovakian operation from the standpoint of the SD?
A. How shall I accept that question?
Q. Did the SD operate in Czechoslovakia?
A. Not the SD Itself.
Q. Did they have anything to do with the uprising against the communists?
A. No, nothing.
Q. What was the operation of the foreign intelligence in Czechoslovakia?
A. The Office of Foreign Countries, with the SD, has only been formed at the outbreak of war. Before that it didn’t exist.
Q. Before the war, what intelligence service was there?
A. Only different information that came in from different minority groups from the different countries was transmitted by the Foreign Service posts to the SD and was used for its information Value.
Q. Was there any operation which was designed to increase the tension between the minority groups and the nationals of other countries?
A. This has not been done from the Reich German side. Those were things carried through by minority groups themselves. At times, of course, they were supported.
Q. I was just going to ask if they were encouraged or supported in any way?
A. It is quite obvious that since we are speaking about Czechoslovakia, that Henlein, who was the leader of the Sudeten German Party, that whenever he had a conversation with Hitler, Göring, Himmler or whoever he talked to, he voiced some requests for support.
Q. Did the SD have anything to do with giving that support?
A. No, only when an order was given by Himmler to do this or that. They were mostly special things and didn’t fall into the general task of the SD.
Q. Do you know of any specific actions when such orders were given?
A. Yes. I can only say that at a time, for instance, when we had to get pistols for the Slovaks and explosive material which Henlein, for instance wanted, there were orders from above because the SD neither disposed of explosive things or weapons. The SD just arranged that weapons from the Wehrmacht were transmitted to the Fighting Group Heinlein.
Q. But none of the personnel of the SD were furnished for any other purpose?
Q. Well, you might be thinking over the activities of the SD in the foreign field in connection with increasing the tension between groups and if you think of anything we can discuss that further at a later meeting. Now when you left the SD, what was your particular job?
A. Heydrich’s intention really was to get rid of me and I should have been sent to the “Lost Group” and as the war was on, the best thing would have been to send me to the “Lost Group” with the Waffen SS. At that time when I was degraded, I was imprisoned for three weeks by the Gestapo and I had given a written declaration to be allowed to leave the SS because I only received the fee of an SS man and this was far less than my flat had cost. This application I sent on to Heydrich. Two days later, two officials from the Gestapo came and gave me this voluntary application form for the Waffen SS and they told me it would be best for me to sign, and knowing Heydrich, and knowing I would not receive support anywhere, I had to sign. Then I was drafted over the district command and I was educated in infantry with the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in Berlin. Shortly before that, I had had a nervous breakdown because I felt all these things coming towards me and I felt that a breakdown was near me and for one and a half months I was trained as an infantry man. After my training I was sent to hospital because of a stomach inflammation and at that time the war against Russia started and straight from the hospital I volunteered for foreign service and was sent straight from the hospital to the front. So I avoided going into this “Lost Group” because the order to send me to the “Lost Group” was at that time with the Leibstandarte where I was trained but I went straight from the hospital to the front. The Chief of the Military Regiment I knew personally and I gave him my whole situation and I asked him to protect me in case I was asked to go to this “Lost Group” and in the meantime we had advanced far into Russia and I never heard any more about it. I was in Russia until Christmas 1941 and received a further stomach inflammation and yellow fever and then I went back into the home hospital, in Berlin and I was treated in the hospital until the middle of 1942 and then, not being fit for the front any more, I looked for a new position for myself and I found it as a civilian employee at the military administration. I stopped there until September, 1944.
Q. What kind of job was that?
A. It was a clean economical work. I carried through the fight against the black market in Belgium. That is why I went, voluntarily, in October 1944, over to the allies, because I knew that after we had to retreat from Belgium after the war situation, the SS would have got me. I knew that because the SD had tried to get me and give me different tasks but I didn’t want to go back to the SS under any circumstances, and then I went over the border to the Allies.
Q. When was that?
A. 19 October 1944.
Q. You were in uniform then, were you?
A. No, in civilian clothes.
Q. Where did that take place?
A. Near Malmedy, on the Western Front.
Q. During all that time, you were doing civilian work and you were in Belgium?
Q. What was the nature of that work?
A. Just economical work to fight against the reasons for the black market and to work out orders against it. I tried to build up an organization myself in that respect. I also had difficulties with the SD in Berlin, who were of the opinion that these should be done by police measures while I was of the opinion that they should be done in an economic way.
Q. What department were you with at that time?
A. I was with the economical department of the military government. I was the Referendt (advisor).
Q. I think maybe we will close now. At our next meeting I would like to go through the complete operation of the SD as to just how the reports came in and went through channels and what they finally did with them and so forth. I would like you to think about that and we will discuss it at a later date.
The interrogation was closed at 0430.
- Posts: 71
- Joined: 23 May 2009 19:31
Naujocks really seems to have impressed the British with his connections, but they are refreshingly brutal
in their description. Naujocks calls Daluege "syphilitic" in the previously posted interrogation but gets his own
Is the comment made by a clinical psychologist or a British Officer who has spent a little too much time in a close room with Alfred Naujocks.?
Does anyone know anything about Camp 020?
Name: NAUJOCKS, Alfred
Rank: SS Ostuf.
In Abt VI, SIPO and SD, Brussels (1944)
Address: Brussels (Sep 44)
Description: Age 30-32, effeminate sadist.
Misc: Former counterfeiter. Reported as being awarded the EK I
for his share in the BEST-STEVENS affair.
Career: Formerly in RSHA, Amt VI F. Chief chemist in DELBRUECK-STRASSE.
Preparing propaganda for the SS in Holland. (Oct 43)
In direct telephonic communication with KALTENBRUNNER.
SS and SD alike feared him, even Staf. CANARIS of the SD did not dare oppose him.
No one in Belgium could oppose and expect to survive. (Sep 44)
Arrested and interned (Oct 44) Concerned with detentions and release of sabotage
suspects in Jutland.
Present Location: Camp 020, England.
Matters to be covered in interrogation:
1. Danish Reprisals.
Extract from Camp 020 report on Danish Reprisals. Enclosure 15 to Preliminary Trial Brief.
2. Polish Border Incidents.
Extract from Camp 020 Report on Polish Incidents.
3. Czechoslovakian Mission.
Memo on Czech mission taken from CSDIK (UK) SIR 830