4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

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The Edge
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 21 Feb 2010 02:15

Thanks both to dvzhuk and bechelaren :D , these new info very much confirmed what I suspected (only the very late deliveries for Yugoslavia were rather surprising).

So we have FOUR different types of 47mm Skoda AT gun:
- fortification gun (Skoda A6) ordered by Czechoslovakia, later used by Germans as 4,7 cm Festungspak (t).
(Btw, Yugoslavs were interested too, but their fortification program was even more late then the Czech one.)
- mobile gun (Skoda A5), wooden wheels, initially refused by Czech Army, adopted by Yugoslavia as “M.1936” (I’m very careful not to call Yugoslav guns “vz. 36”), eventually also used by Germans, as 4,7 cm Pak 179 (j).
- mobile gun (Skoda A5), rubber wheels, ordered later by Czechoslovakia (4.7 cm vzor 38 KPUV), only to be taken by Germans (who also ordered some more for themselves) as 4.7cm PaK 36(t).
- tank gun (Skoda A9), planned for ST vz.39 medium tank, later cancelled.
(Yugoslavia was again interested, for Skoda S-IIj tank and S-Ij reconnaissance AFV - with Skoda A9j SPG variant.)

This is the first time I saw "4.7cm PaK 38(t)" designation for Skoda A5 gun. :roll: I was under impression that Germans used "4.7cm PaK 36(t)" for both undelivered M.1936 Yugoslav guns and "vz. 38" Czech guns (since "vz. 38" were officialy never issued to Czech Army).

Regards,
Edge / Antic

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by dvzhuk » 21 Feb 2010 15:27

Hello Antic,
So we have FOUR different types of 47mm Skoda AT gun:
Summarizing data by Janoušek, by Kupka et al., and from http://utocnavozba.wz.cz/, we have following for A-weapons by Škoda. (Bore diameters are actual, not as in designations.)

A2 — 47mm infantry ATG vz. 32
Developed since 1927, designated as A2 in 1931. Used for AFV prototypes MU-6 and SU.

A3 — 37.2mm tank gun vz.35 (vz.34 after Janoušek)
ATG and tank gun. Used for tanks vz.34, vz.35, T-32 and LTP. Total production number of tank guns for Czechoslovak Ministry of National Defence was 358. Export of tank guns: 126 to Romania (for R-2 tanks), 24 to Peru (for LTP tanks, 14 of them converted from infantry ATG vz.34), 8 to Yugoslavia (Škoda Š-I-D or T-32 SPG).
Three prototypes were tested in June 1934. Production started in 1936.

A4 — 37.2mm infantry ATG vz.37
More powerful than A3, A4 could use A3 ammunition, but not vice versa. Both vz. 34 and vz.37 ATGs were produced in several versions: for infantry (P), cavalry (J), motorised/cyclist units (M). They were exported to Iran, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Hungary.

A4β — 37.2mm tank gun
Export tank gun for Iranian TNH tanks.

A5 — 47mm field ATG vz.38
This one was discussed above in this topic.

A6 — 47mm fortification ATG vz.36
This one was discussed above in this topic.

A7 — 37.2mm tank gun vz.38
Tank gun with same characteristics as infantry ATG vz.37. Won competition with A8 and was put into army service for LT-38 tanks. 150 ordered by MND, additional 1747 built for Wehrmacht, 58 for Slovak army, 40 for police river boats.

A8 — 37.2mm tank gun
Tank gun with same characteristics as infantry ATG vz.34. Lost competition to A7. 10 Škoda Š-IIa tanks (improved LT-35 with A8) were ordered by Afghanistan in 1940. They were never delivered though, and sold to Bulgaria in October 1940 and January 1941 as T-11.

Škoda Š-III — 47mm tank gun
Gun for T-III and Š-III tanks. Never put into service.

A9 — 47mm tank gun
This one was developed from Š-III gun (with same ballistics as A5) and proposed for V8H vechicle (medium tank vz.39) or for ŠP-II-b tank. 1st prototype of the gun was tested in June 1938 (total 2 produced). Also used in Škoda Š-I-j SPG developed in spring 1938 for Yugoslavia (planned 108 SPG, none built).

A10 — 37.2mm fortification ATG
Designed in October 1936, army designation L2 (with coax MG) or Q2 (without MG). It was very close to A6 (L1/Q), but with depression angle –20°. Ammunition was same as for A4. On 21 August 1937 two barrels were ordered for tests. But finally on 25 August 1938 L2 program was canceled due to unification reasons (that time a version of A6 with –20° depression angle had already been developed).

A11 — 47mm tank gun
Further development of A9 gun, for medium tanks T-21 and V-8-H.

A12 — 37.2mm mountain ATG
No additional data in these sources.


Regards, Denis

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 21 Feb 2010 19:34

Another more question - is this 47mm A2 gun? :roll: (Photos from TANKS! and Columbian Military Museum)
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 21 Feb 2010 19:52

Btw, I guess there is no point to ask for
7.5 cm Skoda A13,
4 cm Skoda A17,
7.5 cm Skoda A18 and
3.7 cm Skoda A19 guns,
since they could hardly be called "Czech"? :wink:
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by dvzhuk » 21 Feb 2010 20:44

Why not to ask? :wink:

As for me, I have very little info on these guns, from palba.cz and book on LT vz. 38 by Francev and Kliment.

Škoda A13 — semi-auto 75 mm L/36,4 gun. Armour penetration = 70 mm @ 1500 m. Designed for Škoda T-24 tank.
Škoda A18 — semi-auto 75 mm L/55. Designed for Škoda T-25 tank. Tested in post-war time. Armour penetration = 98 mm @ 1000 m.
Škoda A19 — 37.2 mm gun for Škoda TNH n.A. tank. Actually it was A7 modified for the new turret.


Regards, Denis

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by bechelaren » 21 Feb 2010 21:43

47 mm gun for Colombia:

Hello Edge,
this gun is a different story. 47 mm/L 22 A2 gun was designed as infantry- support gun. It was a predecessor of Skoda AT guns but never saw service with Czechoslovak armed forces. These guns were delivered to Colombia during Colombian - Peruvian conflict in 1932 - 34 and were intended to reinforce Colombian border units on Putumayo river.
Contract was signed in March 1934, after Skoda completed delivery of 11 batteries of 7,5 cm mountain guns . Futher sales had to comprise 83,5 mm naval guns and even two armoured gunboats but the the peace treaty signed on 23/5/1934 stopped this contract.

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 21 Feb 2010 22:22

Thanks again :D (very interesting info!), but I'm confused a little - gun at my photos is A2 (or "vz.32") - yes or no? :roll:

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by bechelaren » 21 Feb 2010 23:03

As to black-and- white photos, the lower one originates from Skoda archive and original bears subscription: "47 mm A2 Skoda vz 32 for Colombia". It is known tt Czechoslovak army tested several models of infantry - support guns ( with interchangeable cannon barrel and howitzer barrel) but I found nowhere any trace that any of such guns was accepted for service.
So, in my opinion, A2 gun was only produced for Colombia. According to Skoda files, these guns were intended to fight Peruvian river gunboats as they penetrated 35 mm armour at 1000 metres. Further development of this gun according to requirements of Czechoslovak MOD resulted in A3 model of 3,7 cm calibre designed as 3,7 cm AT cannon vz. 34

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Bunkerfreak » 22 Feb 2010 16:42

Hello all,

In addition to the 4.7cm Festungspak (t):

Besides this 4.7cm gun it was also equiped with an MG 37 (t). this MG 37 fired also through the armoured plate. Before the germans captured this gun, the MG 37 (t) was called ZB 37. a time ago we found a rusty incomplete MG 37 (t) in a 631 bunker in the Boulogne-sur-mer area.

Image

Image

Image

Image

best regards,
Tom Oliviers, BFA

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 22 Feb 2010 23:48

In my oppinion, Skoda A2 is futher (final) development of AB1/BA1 design. 8-)
A3 and later guns were "nue Art" line, probably developed after Skoda Z1 dual-purpose gun.
bechelaren wrote:...they penetrated 35 mm armour at 1000 metres.
Gun with L/22 barrel? :roll: 35mm at 100 meters would be more plausible.

Regards, Edge
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by bechelaren » 23 Feb 2010 23:31

Hi Edge,
the development of low-calibre Skoda field guns started in WWI with 37 mm gun M15 L10. The experiments with universal guns with changeable barrels (cannon/howitzer) went on with different combination of barrel calibres btw 1924 and 1931, BA1 and AB 1 being the final stage. By A2 Skoda left this double- barrel path and started her range of AT guns with A3. Naturally, experience gained was used further on.
Regret but as to penetration capabilities of such guns you are rather not correct. Skoda , Vickers, Bofors etc had 37 to 47 mm guns capable to pierce 20 to 30 mm armour at 1000 metres between the wars . However, it depended on armour quality , so by different type of armour the different results were received.Also such factors like powder charge, muzzle energy and muzzle velocity have to be taken into account. 3,7 cm vz 34 AT gun (A3) can be taken as example. It fulfilled Czechoslovak MOD requirements to break through 30 mm at 1000 m, but soon it was found that by more hardened armour of same thickness the distance of successfull penetration went down to 550 m. The A4 (3,7 cm vz 37) penetrated through 32 mm of such armour at 1100 metres at the costs of larger powder charge. By 4cm fortification cannon vz 36 the armour penetration data of final tests in 1936 are: 50 mm at 1650 m, 38 mm at 1850 m. In 1939 Germans tested this gun and came to armour- piercing capability 50 mm /1100 m. Again, the difference might originate from different armour type.

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Sturm78 » 08 Feb 2011 12:36

Hi all,

I found this small image on Ebay. I think 4.7cm Pak (t) guns

Sturm78
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 31 Mar 2011 01:18

No, this is Yugoslav scenery - they would became 4,7 cm Pak 179 (j) ( :roll: if repaired).

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Dec 2011 23:24

Hi all,

I think 47mm Skoda M1936 yugoslavian AT gun abandoned. 4.7cm Pak 179(j)

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by jopaerya » 21 Jan 2012 15:47

The 4.7 cm gun in transport behind a truck .

Photo = Ebay

Regards Jos
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