Polish atrocities against the German minority in Poland

[maoca]

I have done some researches, and I have found some interesting things about situation in Poland before and in first days of ww2. I have discover that Poles have killed over 60 000 Germans in Poland and deported thousands more. I would be very grateful if some1 could offer me some proofs for or against.

[pugsville]

So you have done research and make the claim of 60,000 but are asking others for proof?? If you have done the research you would have some evidence for the claim, it seems to me that for personal beliefs you want the number to be true and want arguments and references so you can throw it around a bit, rather than being involved in a objective look at the facts.

[maoca]

I can do only internet research.I live in a small city in Bosnia and couldn't find anything in our city's library.Also my history teacher said that she dosen't know anything about it.I have read everything on internet about "Bloody sunday of Bromberg" and other massacres, but I can not find trusted source of informations.I'm not fan of Hitler, so I'm not trying to justifay his actions.I just want to know the truth that's why I'm here.So, as I said before, I would be very grateful if some1 could offer me trusted proof. thanks

[pugsville]

60,000 figure is just obvious crap. Poland there were problems with minorities but regular widespread massacres dont believe it for a second. Pogroms against Jews sure, some incidents with the German minorities sure. 60,000 fiction.

[maoca]

Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly said to his army officers (according to the English newspaper, Daily Mail on 6th August 1939): "Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to".Every1 knew that in 1939. Poles were making maps with new Polish west border near Berlin.Also Polish government made "The order 59" and it was announced on radio on the third of September. Order 59 legalised atrocities against German minority. That's what I know for sure and I still think that such aggressive policy of Polish military and government is enough to take this topic in serious consideration. Too bad couse I can not find out my self

[pugsville]

Got any references to back any of that up? For startes the 6th of August was a SUNDAY, the Daily mail did not appear on sundays. So he definitely wasnt quoted in any article in the Daily Mail on SUNDAY the 6th of August.

[Marcus]

We have a number of threads on this topic in the forum, for example:
Der Bromberger Blutsonntag - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3697
Polish brutality against ethnic German civillians in WW2 - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=42829
Polish treatment of the German minority - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=145921

Also, please try to write with proper English instead of things like "Every1", we have many members who have English as a second or third language and the use of such terms only makes it harder for them to follow the discussions.

/Marcus

[maoca]

@pugsville You can find countless articles on internet about Polish intention to attack Germany in 1939. Poles thought that their allies (France and Great Britain) will help them and then Germany can't stand s chance to fight back.There is also "Gleiwitz incident". The problem is that I don't believe nor Nazi nor allied story, becouse both are propaganda.History is written by winners, that's why I don't believe allies, and I don't even have to say why I don't believe in Nazi propaganda.So I believe in things that seems logical to me.

@Marcus Wendel Thank you, I'm have found a lot of interesting and useful things here.

[pugsville]

Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly said to his army officers (according to the English newspaper, Daily Mail on 6th August 1939): "Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to"

Debunked complete fiction NO Daily Mail on Sundays. Your obliviously haven't done the research when you repeat such shoddy propaganda claims that can be comprehensively shown to be complete fictions in a couple of minutes investigation. You have been taken in by and repeated this shoddy propaganda claim. Do this research get a bit more critical about what you read rather than be taken in by every jive ass propaganda claim. "Gleiwitz incident"?? A False flag operations by the Nazis, you are just repeating Nazi propaganda here. Really. Thats the best you got?

[maoca]

Who said that "Gleiwitz incident" is fals flag?British? Americans? If I'm not wrong those are the same British who were accusing Hitler for being an imperialist, even if they have occupied 1/4 of the whole world after ww1. And the same Americans who are accusing Hitler for being racist even if everyone know how were they treating black people until last 20-25 years.Again I'm not fan of Hitler.Some of my family's member died fighting Nazis.I just believe nor allies nor nazis and looking for someone who can help me and offer some trusted info!

[Harro]

Die seriösen Forschungsergebnisse von Lück wurden allerdings durch die berüchtigte "Sprachregelung" des Reichspropaganda-Ministeriums aus dem Februar 1940 konterkariert, durch die die Zahl von 5.437 Ermordeten im Weißbuch Nr. 1 nun in der von Hans Schadewald herausgegebenen zweiten Auflage des Weißbuches (Die polnischen Greueltaten an den Volksdeutschen in Polen, Berlin 1940, die erweiterte zweite Auflage erschien unter dem Titel: Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeit) verzehnfacht wurde. Nun war die Rede von 58.000 vermißten und ermordeten Volksdeutschen. Von diesen 58.000 seien 12.857 (die Genesis dieser präzisen Zahl ist ungeklärt) mit Sicherheit identifizierte Ermordete. Die Zahl von 13.000 Ermordeten hielt auch der Generalreferent und Neffe Arthur Greisers, Gauleiter des Warthelandes, in seinen völlig unbeachteten Memoiren (Harry Siegmund: Rückblick. Erinnerungen eines Staatsdieners in bewegter Zeit. Kiel 1999) für durchaus möglich. Daß die Zahl von 58.000 nichts mehr mit der Wirklichkeit gemein hatte, war damals allen nur halbwegs eingeweihten Volksdeutschen bekannt, was allerdings Buchautoren bis heute nicht daran hindert, in rührender Naivität diese absurde Zahl immer wieder aufzugreifen.

http://www.jungefreiheit.de/Archiv.611. ... 092258.htm

Also, from "Hitler's Mann in Danzig" by Dieter Schenk:

Die Zahl der Opfer ist in der Literatur unterschiedlich angegeben worden und dürfte zwischen 1500 und 5800 gelegen haben. In dieser Höhe wurde sie von dem Leiter der Mordkommission des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes, Dr Bernhard Wehner, in einer ausführlichen Zeugen-Vernehmung nach dem Kriege beziffert (3479 Tote errechnete Gentzen anhand der Gräber- und Vermisstenkartei). Wehner war mit den Ermittlung in Bromberg beauftragt worden und meldete zunächst die Zahl 5800 Mitte Dezember 1939 dem Auswärtigen Amt, das mit dem Erstellen eines deutschen Weissbuches befasst war. Wehner berichtete: 'Kurze Zeit später erfuhr ich, dass Hitler wegen dieses Weissbuches sehr erregt gewesen sei. Auf seinen Befehl musste die gesamte gedruckte Auflage im Februar oder März 1940 eingestampft werden.' Hitler ordnete an, dass in der von ihm genehmigten Ausgabe die Zahl der Opfer zu verzehnfachen sei. Damit wurde von der deutschen Propaganda die Zahl von 58,000 Mordopfern der 'polnischen Septembermorde' übernommen. Intern korrigierte Wehner später die Gesamtzahl auf 3500 nach unten, nachdem in ehemals polnischen Gebiet deutsche Polizeidienststellen 'ordnungsgemäss' arbeiteten und die Vermisstenfälle erfassten.

[maoca]

I'm afraid that my German is very bad

[iwh]

I do believe Mr Maoca is playing a game. He won't accept anything from the Nazis nor the Allies.....so where does he expect to get his answers from? Which information would he actually trust?

Hmmmm.....

[Harro]

In short: the official German investigating team concluded in 1940 that 5800 ethnic German had been killed. For propaganda reasons Hitler ordered that this figure had to be multiplied by ten. From then on all German publications stated that 58,000 people died. Meanwhile the German investigators corrected their original 5800 to 3500.

[maoca]

I would trust informations from someone neutral.