Soviet Naval Battles

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igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Apr 2013 02:44

lupodimare89 wrote: At hour 07.25 after 90 minutes of fire, MAS-571 was hit and commander wounded...
It is too late to fight with D-3 and SM-3.
May be they fight with some local soviet convoy about what there is no data in soviet Chronicle.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Apr 2013 09:50

It has also to be said that the whole range time is pretty large, first contact at 03.00 and then start of heavy fighting around 06.00 that lasted at least until 7.25
Sadly the book with this hour time give only preview on internet, and i don't think it will add more, luckily when i will have some time, i will order the other one (that's focused just on Ladoga and Black Sea) it's onld (1962) with at least 2 editions.
I expect to find a number of the classic overclaim, but it could give more details about lenght and location and damage/causalities in operations.

Now, moving on second part of 1942

--------------------------

30 September 1942
Torpedo boat Storm bombed Anapa. 40 rounds.
Details about damages?

4 October 1942 (but i've read also 1 October!)
Destroyers Soobrazitelnyi and Boikyi bombed Yalta. 3 enemy MTBs came out and were quickly rejected by Boikyi fire.
203 shells fired by Boikyi and 97 by Soobrazitelnyi. A site with old soviet stuff said that "partisans reported that a submarine was sunk at Yalta".
Now... surely no CB submarine was lost. However, checking now a book of Giorgio Giorgerini (second edition, 2002) it say that "other units, both in that occasion" (the loss of CB-5 due torpedo boat, in the text Giorgerini tell it was an "aero-navale" attack without mention if the torpedo that hit CB-5 was from aircraft or from MTB) "suffered damages, but were quickly repaired".
No other details (which units, for how much days remained out of service) is given. I don't know exactly how many air raids were done on Yalta against the harbour in 1942, however i hope to find more details in that 1962 book.
(I also have no identity for the 3 MTBs that went close to Boikyi)


5 November 1942
German submarine U-24 after having missed with a torpedo, launched a third one (dud hit) and missed with a third last torpedo the minesweeper Tszcz-492 .
Then there was a gunfire battle, but it's unclear to me who was engaged (if only U-24 and the minesweeper, or others too)

1 December 1942
The famous event of Bezposhchadnyi and Boikyi with one of most worst case of misidentification. With shells and torpedoes (one by Bezposhchadnyi and 6 by Boikyi ) against what was believed to be a convoy with 2 merchants, 1 tanker, and 1 escort gunboat and actually were rocks.
The most weird aspect of the event should be that both of the destroyers did the mistake.
Are survived documents about the two destoyers on this event? It could be interesting to understand if they were sure or only moderately confident of facing ships.
I've made a research to see if they could have fired at some kind of naval vessel but i've found nothing.
The closer naval loss was the ligher Sawa lost on stranding on 9 December 1942 (but that was eight days later)
At this point the only other possibility could be some civilian trawlers, but for this should be needed a reserch on old Romanian documents including newspapers ecc..


13 December 1942
Soobrazitelnyi with Tszcz-406, Tszcz-407, Tszcz-408 and Tszcz-412 hunting for enemy convoys.
The battle of Tszcz-408 and Tszcz-412 against merchants Tsar Ferdinand and Oituz, escorted by torpedo boat Smeul has according the old Soviet sources hits on a merchant and the "destroyer" (the Smeul). I've read from online Romanian articles that there is no mention to damages, just that some shells fall very close to Smeul.
It could be interesting to see if original Romanian documents dig more deeply into this event. And if there are private/civilian accounts of the two engagement by the merchants that could give description of the Soviet fire.
Smeul's fire should have not reached the Soviet minesweepers, and the action of German R-boats (how many?) that simulated of being MTBs ended the fight.



19 December 1942 Result:
A double bombing: leader destroyer Kharkov and destroyer Bokiyi against Yalta (again, if there were some kind of light/splinter damages on Italian botas, i think it can surface in that old text of 1962 that i may find).
And destroyer Nezamozhnik and torpedo boat Shkval against Fedosiya.
The last bombing produced 190 shells and what seems to be the only confirmed sinking/destruction of a naval target by gunfire in Black Sea.
I've read however 2 options. On Tsushima.net was said that an ex-soviet tug known only with the letter "D" got a direct hit of 102mm and was destroyed. It could be interesting to know if there is a tonnage reported of this ship.
However i've also read that the same day (19 December 1942) was lost on Yalta also the motor guard boat
BW-04/Delfin 4 was lost on Fedosiya officially due air attack.
There was an aereial bombing at the same time of the ships bombing? Or shortly ater/before?
And what about that Delfin-4 and "D" were actually the same ship? (both start with D letter, and someone could have mixed the two ships)
(Delfin-4 had a lenght of 14,5 metres, 8 sailors and was armed with a single 7,9mm machine gun. Had botht he function of patrol and of minesweeping boat).

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Apr 2013 11:01

I add also the short list of Soviet MTBs actions i've. It's only about the successes, so i don't know if there were involved gunfires or reaction fire by other escort units. (expecially for the attacks against MFP)

Italian midget submarine CB-5 sunk by D-3 on 13 June 1942
(this event should have not involved gunfire, because D-3 just launched the torpedo and went away)

F-334A sunk by SM-3 and D-3prototype on 1 August 1942

F-138A sunk by TK-36, TK-46, TK-56 or TK-76 on 15 August 1942

F-131A sunk by TK-114 and TK-124 on 6 October 1942

F-470C run aground escaping an attack of TK-114 and TK-124 on 28 October 1942

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Apr 2013 11:02

lupodimare89 wrote:30 September 1942
Torpedo boat Storm bombed Anapa. 40 rounds.
Details about damages?
SHTORM has no damages. Nothing known to me for germans damages.
Btw for soviet side it was already 1.10.42
4 October 1942 (but i've read also 1 October!)
Destroyers Soobrazitelnyi and Boikyi bombed Yalta. 3 enemy MTBs came out and were quickly rejected by Boikyi fire.
203 shells fired by Boikyi and 97 by Soobrazitelnyi. A site with old soviet stuff said that "partisans reported that a submarine was sunk at Yalta".
Now... surely no CB submarine was lost. However, checking now a book of Giorgio Giorgerini (second edition, 2002) it say that "other units, both in that occasion" (the loss of CB-5 due torpedo boat, in the text Giorgerini tell it was an "aero-navale" attack without mention if the torpedo that hit CB-5 was from aircraft or from MTB) "suffered damages, but were quickly repaired".
Heh, none of your dates is correct. Both DD sailed 0.30 2.10.42 and shelled Yalta "in night 2/3.10". I don't know exact hours. They expended 300 rounds both, so your 203/97 looks correct.
Words about sunk sub present in Chronicle, more, it said that she was italian.
No signs of MTB's attack.
I don't know exactly how many air raids were done on Yalta against the harbour in 1942,
I think, many of them.
5 November 1942
German submarine U-24 after having missed with a torpedo, launched a third one (dud hit) and missed with a third last torpedo the minesweeper Tszcz-492 .
Then there was a gunfire battle, but it's unclear to me who was engaged (if only U-24 and the minesweeper, or others too)
Only M/S was engaged (he has 3-45-mm, 1-20-mm and 2-12.7-mm). U-boat open fire first (as seen in U.24's KTB). No damages for both sides.
1 December 1942
The famous event of Bezposhchadnyi and Boikyi with one of most worst case of misidentification. With shells and torpedoes (one by Bezposhchadnyi and 6 by Boikyi ) against what was believed to be a convoy with 2 merchants, 1 tanker, and 1 escort gunboat and actually were rocks.
The most weird aspect of the event should be that both of the destroyers did the mistake.
Can't say anything. Chronicle say that DD's fired just against shore, not ships.
Someday in future M. Morozov planned to write about this operation (me as co-author). He has docs from both side. Then i would be know more!
13 December 1942
Soobrazitelnyi with Tszcz-406, Tszcz-407, Tszcz-408 and Tszcz-412 hunting for enemy convoys.
The battle of Tszcz-408 and Tszcz-412 against merchants Tsar Ferdinand and Oituz, escorted by torpedo boat Smeul has according the old Soviet sources hits on a merchant and the "destroyer" (the Smeul). I've read from online Romanian articles that there is no mention to damages, just that some shells fall very close to Smeul.
In Chronicle written that according to capturied romanian docs, convoy evaded fire under cover of smoke without damage.
This clash also to be subject for article.
19 December 1942 Result:
The last bombing produced 190 shells and what seems to be the only confirmed sinking/destruction of a naval target by gunfire in Black Sea.
I've read however 2 options. On Tsushima.net was said that an ex-soviet tug known only with the letter "D" got a direct hit of 102mm and was destroyed. It could be interesting to know if there is a tonnage reported of this ship.
However i've also read that the same day (19 December 1942) was lost on Yalta also the motor guard boat
BW-04/Delfin 4 was lost on Fedosiya officially due air attack.
There was an aereial bombing at the same time of the ships bombing? Or shortly ater/before?
And what about that Delfin-4 and "D" were actually the same ship? (both start with D letter, and someone could have mixed the two ships)
(Delfin-4 had a lenght of 14,5 metres, 8 sailors and was armed with a single 7,9mm machine gun. Had botht he function of patrol and of minesweeping boat).
There was no aerial bombing that night + german docs said that D received shell, not bomb.
I participated in that discussion on Tsishima and proposed ex. Delfin 4 as a target, but M.Morozov refused it saying that all this bolgarian cutters not leaved west coast of Black sea.
Last edited by igorr on 23 Apr 2013 02:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Apr 2013 11:15

Ok (cant' wait to read the articles you will wrote with Morozov).
I added the small list of MTBs successes in Black Sea for 1942, just to check if they're confirmed and if there are gunfire events/clashes with escort.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 22 Apr 2013 11:33

F-334A sunk by SM-3 and D-3prototype on 1 August 1942
Confirmed on HM site. Different account of causalities: one say 11 dead, 7 saved of them 2 wia. Another say 12 dead of the 19 crew + 2 wouned (one later dead).
Other units close were F 335 and F 127
F-138A sunk by TK-36, TK-46, TK-56 or TK-76 on 15 August 1942
On HM say that on 12 August was damaged by aircraft.
Nothing else until her heavy damages on 4 October by mine (not repaired)
F-131A sunk by TK-114 and TK-124 on 6 October 1942
Found now on HM site nothing about of this event and the unit was lost in 1943 in medierranean
F-470C run aground escaping an attack of TK-114 and TK-124 on 28 October 1942
Nothing on HM, should have run aground in 1943, i've not understood well the date.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 22 Apr 2013 13:53

lupodimare89 wrote:
F-138A sunk by TK-36, TK-46, TK-56 or TK-76 on 15 August 1942
On HM say that on 12 August was damaged by aircraft.
Nothing else until her heavy damages on 4 October by mine (not repaired)
Soviet side said that TKA's fired only two torpedoes and 10 rocket projectiles. One torpedo sunk, second missed, RP all lay overshot from target.
F-131A sunk by TK-114 and TK-124 on 6 October 1942
Found now on HM site nothing about of this event and the unit was lost in 1943 in medierranean
TKA-124 claim one barge sunk in Solenoje area.
F-470C run aground escaping an attack of TK-114 and TK-124 on 28 October 1942
Nothing on HM, should have run aground in 1943, i've not understood well the date.
29.10.42 this ferry has her middle engine broken and went to long repair. Who know maybe reason was actually stranding?
I'm almost forgotten, that recently i'm downloaded all KTB of Admiral Schwarzmeer, translated to english. There is no signs of battles of 6 and 28 october.
F.138 really mentioned as damaged 4 october by german mines and written off.
Tomorrow i will search link for you.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 23 Apr 2013 02:40

http://archive.org/details/wardiaryofadmir101242germ
KTB of Adm. Black Sea for 10-12.42. There is some other KTB's aroud on this site.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 23 Apr 2013 11:12

Wow thank you ! (a good b-day gift, today it is my bday ^^)
I will explore it well before moving on Black Sea 1943
(Just found that there are many other archivies!! Will take time to explore them, but i will do ^^)

However a little update for Baltic
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=15
Just found in that topic for Operation Drosselfang that T-30 got damaged too, by machine guns fire of attacking TK.
It say about 1 kia and 3 wia on an AA gun, some hits on hull, and an interesting hit that penetrated a fuel tak (but empty)
I don't know if the attacking MTBs were armed with just 12.7mm or also 20mm or 25mm (i've read that this stronger weapons were put on D-3 class built from 1943).
I didn't know that the Elbing class armour was so thin to manage a penetration of such weapons, and the T-30 has been very lucky that the fuel tank was empty

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 23 Apr 2013 12:24

lupodimare89 wrote:Wow thank you ! (a good b-day gift, today it is my bday ^^)
Happy birthday!
However a little update for Baltic
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=15
Just found in that topic for Operation Drosselfang that T-30 got damaged too, by machine guns fire of attacking TK.
It say about 1 kia and 3 wia on an AA gun,
+10 wounded (lightly). Pipe for smoke-layer was holed and range-finder damaged too.
some hits on hull, and an interesting hit that penetrated a fuel tak (but empty)
I don't know if the attacking MTBs were armed with just 12.7mm or also 20mm or 25mm (i've read that this stronger weapons were put on D-3 class built from 1943).
D-3 type has 20-mm gun.
I didn't know that the Elbing class armour was so thin to manage a penetration of such weapons, and the T-30 has been very lucky that the fuel tank was empty
I've ever think T-boote has no armour. May be bridge later of war, but not board and deck.

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 26 Apr 2013 16:01

Thank you! and thanks also for the confirmations and further detail
I've started a double work on the link you've given me, i've dowloaded all the files avaible (it's sad that some months are missing, as the whole 1944) and will write doubts/considerations/questions..

However, on tsushima.net i've found this amazing discussion with a Morozov list of all the Soviet success of submarines (and the other countries involved on Eastern Front too)
http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1357
It cleaned my lits of a number of claims and things probably originated by other old and not-too-much old lists.
And it adds also a pair of new things.

If there is already another more detailed topic on tsushima.net or sowhere else (focused on Morozov list and opinion) a direct link is enaugh ^^


I've made a check, and this is a list of ALL unclear/unexplained things i've on Black Sea Soviet submarine successes.

BLACK SEA:

CLAIMS by MINES, not on Morozov list. I'm interested to know (if are known) the real causes of sinking (air attacks, German/Romanian or maybe Soviet mines laid by ships) or if a specific case is considered as "possible/probable/unprobable ecc.." but not considered by Morozov because unsure if it was lost on the submarine's mines or something else.

L-4: (7 claims)
11/Oct/41 Bulgarian tug FR-12 (22 GTR).
9/Nov/41 Hungarian merchant Ungvar (961 GTR) and further loss of Romanian MTBs Viforul (37 GTR) and Vijelia (37 GTR) due explosion. (Ungvar should have struck a mine, don't know who laid it)
29Apr/42 F-130 run agrond (later repaired)
14/May/43 F-470
1/May/44 German barge CNR-1468 (1200 GTR) (maybe lost due air attack?)

L-5 (2 claims)
15/Oct/42 F-138
17/Feb/43 F-473

L-6 (2 claims)
20/Jun/42 Romanian barge Danubius (550 GTR)
11/Jun/43 German merchant Charlotte (1591 GTR)

L-23 (1 claim)
15/Jun/43 F-121 (155 GTR)

----------------------------------------

Interesting events in the lists of Morozov:

ShCh-201 "destroyed/sunk" the German MFK-5701(15 GTR). I believed it was just an old claim. However i've not understood what exactly it was this MFK (patrol craft? minesweeping? or civilian use?) and how it was lost (gunfire/ramming/capture and then destruction).

M-31 torpedoed and sunk the Romanian tug Oltul. I've already read lots of issues about this ship (and the problem with name, old one "Mina Daniel" and a "twin" claim with mine by L-5 (if i'm correct). However i would be interested to know if this was actually or not a commissioned military ship or a tug. It has been a minesweeper when in Italian service, and i've read her mentioned as "submarine chaser" in Romanian use (the only time i've seen a Romanian warship with such designation).

I've found also very interesting the discussion about the claims of ShCh-214 on Turkish schooner of early June 1942. For what i've found he's even been strict to deny a soviet claim,when needed, and that time he seemed sure about the successful actions of ShCh-214. If i'm right the 3 common names of target given have to be scrapped (because wrong "mixing" of other names) but in one of the last posts it has be found (by you igor) that Turkish government ordered to not publish informations of the vessels. I think to not put in threat the Turkish neutrality, right?


-----------------------------------

CLAIMS WITH TORPEDO, not on Morozov List. (that still i don't think that have to be scrapped so easily).

ShCh-216 7/Oct/42 forced to run aground an "unnamed Romanian minesweeper" launching 2 torpedoes. What happened? It has been attacked a civilian/military dredger and what was the real fate of the target?

L-24 10/Jul/42 torpedo hit on Italian tanker Arca (2223 GRT). The ship was later sunk in Octobre by British submarine. I've not found data on our italian sources, but i had read that the Arca could have been hit by a torpedo. There is something of true?

A-5 12/May/44 sunk German merchant Geiserich (712 GRT) with torpedo. No mention on Morozov list, and i've found also that the 2 single attacks of A-5 during May'44 were against other 2 targets without result. There is some truth about the possible aerial damage of Geiserich and then being finished by A-5? I've not much trust however in this possibility.

M-35 11/May/45 claim to have sunk a barge. There is some MFP that was lost close?

M-111 28/Jun/43 attack on F-325 (should have be a failure)
M-111 17/ 8/Jul/43 Romanian barge Dunarea I (505 GRT) torpedo. It was lost by air attack?
M-111 27/Nov/43 claim to have rammed a barge, what happened? it was a MFP?

M-117 15/Nov/43 sunk German landing craft F-592 (155 GTR) what happened at real?

-----------------------
UNEXPLODED TORPEDOES: (i think that these events happened, but Morozov probably didn't put them in list because the hit caused none to very minor damage due impact. I'm however interested to now if and when these kind of damage occurred).

ShCh-213 Turkish merchant Adam ( 1158 GRT) hit on 3/Feb/42 by unexploded torpedo that caused minor damage (that was wrote in the tsushima.net topic i've linked before).

M-33 20/Aug/41 missed the romanian submarine Delfinul (650 GTR) however one torpedo while running over submarine caused very minor damage by impact on hull (repair in a week) someone else mention it?

M-111 18/Jul/43 hit German tanker Adelhayd (444 GTR) by unexploded torpedo. Confirmed minor impact damage?

M-35 27/Oct/41 hit German submarine-chaser UJ-117 Lola by unexploded torpedo
23/Nov/43 hit German submarine-chaser UJ-101 by unexploded torpedo
In both case, it's confirmed? torpedo left impact minor damage or not?

M-117 27/Jun/43 could have hit with unexploded torpedo F-139

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 27 Apr 2013 17:46

lupodimare89 wrote: If there is already another more detailed topic on tsushima.net or sowhere else (focused on Morozov list and opinion) a direct link is enaugh
I think there is no other place like this one.
L-4: (7 claims)
11/Oct/41 Bulgarian tug FR-12 (22 GTR).
FR.12 wasn't tug and wasn't bulgarian. This is german river minesweeper from 12-ships bath, named "Flussraumboot". This one hit bulgarian mine, minefield S-39 1 mile from Burgaz.
9/Nov/41 Hungarian merchant Ungvar (961 GTR) and further loss of Romanian MTBs Viforul (37 GTR) and Vijelia (37 GTR) due explosion. (Ungvar should have struck a mine, don't know who laid it)
Sunk on mine laid by soviet DD's SMYSHLENIY and BODRIY. Both MTB sunk after same one explosion as UNGVAR.
29Apr/42 F-130 run agrond (later repaired)
I can-t said who laid this mine, but definetely not L-4. All mines she laid was more to south-west from position of F.130 explosion.
14/May/43 F-470
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de ... value=1344
1/May/44 German barge CNR-1468 (1200 GTR) (maybe lost due air attack?)
This lighter was self-destroyed by germans 17.4.44 in Eupatoria.
L-5 (2 claims)
15/Oct/42 F-138
Can't say anything beside date - it was 04/05.10.42.
17/Feb/43 F-473
This one M. Morozov recon as possible.
L-6 (2 claims)
20/Jun/42 Romanian barge Danubius (550 GTR)
Until this date L-6 laid only one barrage - near Ak-Metschet, so their mine can't sunk this vessel. This loss come from Bogatyrev's loss register, very unclear and unfamous for their numerous errors.
11/Jun/43 German merchant Charlotte (1591 GTR)
M. Morozov denied this claim and say that ship sunk on german ploating mine.
L-23 (1 claim)
15/Jun/43 F-121 (155 GTR)
M. Morozov not listed this one? Hm, there was one problem - mines was laid on deep more that MFP's draft.
ShCh-201 "destroyed/sunk" the German MFK-5701(15 GTR). I believed it was just an old claim. However i've not understood what exactly it was this MFK (patrol craft? minesweeping? or civilian use?) and how it was lost (gunfire/ramming/capture and then destruction).
This was civil fishing cutter, very little as you can see. Sailors from SCSH-201 holed their bottom with crowbar.
M-31 torpedoed and sunk the Romanian tug Oltul.
I see them only as tug. But she has MG.
I've found also very interesting the discussion about the claims of ShCh-214 on Turkish schooner
All matters with turkish ships so complicated, i just not wish to go deep in them.
ShCh-216 7/Oct/42 forced to run aground an "unnamed Romanian minesweeper" launching 2 torpedoes. What happened? It has been attacked a civilian/military dredger and what was the real fate of the target?
Sub not observed her results, only hear two explosions. Both torpedoes hit a mole.
L-24 10/Jul/42 torpedo hit on Italian tanker Arca (2223 GRT). The ship was later sunk in Octobre by British submarine. I've not found data on our italian sources, but i had read that the Arca could have been hit by a torpedo. There is something of true?
Fantastic tale! L-24 10.7.42 was on repair in Poti after bomb and ramming damages 2.7.42 in Novorossijsk. First war patrol only 14.8.42. Never hear about ARCA's torpedoing.
A-5 12/May/44 sunk German merchant Geiserich (712 GRT) with torpedo. No mention on Morozov list, and i've found also that the 2 single attacks of A-5 during May'44 were against other 2 targets without result. There is some truth about the possible aerial damage of Geiserich and then being finished by A-5? I've not much trust however in this possibility.
Geiserich was sunk by Il-2 from 8 GShAP. A-5 attacked that day twice: first time ungar. KASSA, second time UJ.318. Both unsuccesful.
M-35 11/May/45 claim to have sunk a barge. There is some MFP that was lost close?
What? I/m feel a little shoked. War in Europe was over at 9.5.45, but at Black sea even earlier - in aug. 1944!
If you about 1944, she attacked german MFP-convoy "Tanne". MFP see explosion and counter-attacked. No hits.
M-111 28/Jun/43 attack on F-325 (should have be a failure)
I'm only know that attack on convoy was unsuccessful. Earlier M.M. thinks that F.325 may be damaged by dude torpedo, but now he refuse this.
M-111 17/ 8/Jul/43 Romanian barge Dunarea I (505 GRT) torpedo. It was lost by air attack?
M-111 that day just sailed from their base. Dunarea sunk by mine 06.06.43 on Danube.
M-111 27/Nov/43 claim to have rammed a barge, what happened? it was a MFP?
Where you get this strange claim? If little sub like type M wish to ram MFP, this may be very bad for sub.
But in reality M-111 was in Tuapse that day. Sailed only 29.11.43.
M-117 15/Nov/43 sunk German landing craft F-592 (155 GTR) what happened at real?
You read MM's list not carefully. MFP was sunk by SCSH-215. M-117 that day was in base, not in sea.
UNEXPLODED TORPEDOES: (i think that these events happened, but Morozov probably didn't put them in list because the hit caused none to very minor damage due impact. I'm however interested to now if and when these kind of damage occurred).
If torpedo hits a target, MM mentioned this.
ShCh-213 Turkish merchant Adam ( 1158 GRT) hit on 3/Feb/42 by unexploded torpedo that caused minor damage (that was wrote in the tsushima.net topic i've linked before).
Sub was on base that day.
M-33 20/Aug/41 missed the romanian submarine Delfinul (650 GTR) however one torpedo while running over submarine caused very minor damage by impact on hull (repair in a week) someone else mention it?
M-33 fired one torpedo and it missed. What damages? I have report about this attack translated to german. It say: torpedo patch goes ?0 m after our stern. First digit unclear but nevermind, there was no hit.
M-111 18/Jul/43 hit German tanker Adelhayd (444 GTR) by unexploded torpedo. Confirmed minor impact damage?
ADELHEID was the name. This was river tanker with little draft, so torpedo goes under them. She just knock on bottom lightly when she pass through. And go furter to other traverse. No damage.
M-35 27/Oct/41 hit German submarine-chaser UJ-117 Lola by unexploded torpedo
This time LOLA was used as transport ship. I know about hit, but not about damage. Must be without them.
23/Nov/43 hit German submarine-chaser UJ-101 by unexploded torpedo
UJ.101 was damaged that day but not from torpedo hit. Soviet A-20 make two near miss and strafed her.
M-117 27/Jun/43 could have hit with unexploded torpedo F-139
Again a strange claim. M-117 arrived at her base 24.6.43 and not sailed again til 16.7.43

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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 27 Apr 2013 22:43

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    lupodimare89 wrote: If there is already another more detailed topic on tsushima.net or sowhere else (focused on Morozov list and opinion) a direct link is enaugh 
I think there is no other place like this one.
Ok, it's that sometimes a topic may have different contents. That one for exemple is named for Soviet ships sunk by German submarines, but in the comments Morozov wrote also his list for Soviet victories.
9/Nov/41 Hungarian merchant Ungvar (961 GTR) and further loss of Romanian MTBs Viforul (37 GTR) and Vijelia (37 GTR) due explosion. (Ungvar should have struck a mine, don't know who laid it)
Sunk on mine laid by soviet DD's SMYSHLENIY and BODRIY. Both MTB sunk after same one explosion as UNGVAR.
That's interesting, first or later i will try to face the issue of soviet warships and minelaying results. I've found almost nothing on english online.. (just to know, there is a topic on tsushima.net? I mean, if someone tried to make a list of all ships sunk by Soviet mines laid by destroyers, minelayers, minesweepers, MO class, ecc... and by which ship/s )


L-5 (2 claims)
15/Oct/42 F-138
Can't say anything beside date - it was 04/05.10.42.

17/Feb/43 F-473
This one M. Morozov recon as possible.
Interesting, because at this point these should be the only two possible victories for L-5.
I've just checked and marinearchiv.de just say "vor Sewastopol " for the first and "von Chersonnes auf treibende Mine" for the second one. I guess this give to L-5 only the second one as possible .
L-23 (1 claim)
15/Jun/43 F-121 (155 GTR)
M. Morozov not listed this one? Hm, there was one problem - mines was laid on deep more that MFP's draft.
Yes, it's not on the list. Probably because of that.
M-31 torpedoed and sunk the Romanian tug Oltul. I see them only as tug. But she has MG.
http://www.navypedia.org/ships/romania/ro_es_oltul.htm
It wasn't that ship? Or it was a sister/twin?
http://www.geocities.ws/dangrecu/VaseArm.html#dragoare
Here however is listed among "marittime transport tugs". With 2x20mm and depth charges.

Fantastic tale! L-24 10.7.42 was on repair in Poti after bomb and ramming damages 2.7.42 in Novorossijsk. First war patrol only 14.8.42. Never hear about ARCA's torpedoing.
Yeah i know it was weird, moreover nothing came out after talks with other italian about the Arca
What? I/m feel a little shoked. War in Europe was over at 9.5.45, but at Black sea even earlier - in aug. 1944!
If you about 1944, she attacked german MFP-convoy "Tanne". MFP see explosion and counter-attacked. No hits.
Sorry! Again mistake of 45 rather then 44, i've made a check.. should have done a double check.
Where you get this strange claim? If little sub like type M wish to ram MFP, this may be very bad for sub.
But in reality M-111 was in Tuapse that day. Sailed only 29.11.43.
Probably old tales on random sites (as the second one on F-139) , sadly i've much materials spread on different files and for 90% it was before i started to write the link of the original source close the entry/event.
I'm making this list just to clean all from this kind of stuff. But also to not miss good things, as the possible F-473 by L-5 that wasn't present in that list of Morozov.

You read MM's list not carefully. MFP was sunk by SCSH-215. M-117 that day was in base, not in sea.
Ok, that time it was because i've had on another list the MFP as victim of M-117 and i've not noticed that the number was the same when i checked the two files (one with Morozov's list and one with all the others). Thanks for clarification.

ShCh-213 Turkish merchant Adam ( 1158 GRT) hit on 3/Feb/42 by unexploded torpedo that caused minor damage (that was wrote in the tsushima.net topic i've linked before).
Sub was on base that day.
Sorry.... that was another mistake by me but because of english/non english day/month issue <.<
“Адана“ (пароход 1158 брт/720 нрт/1675 двт) 2.03.1942 г. в 13 час. 45 мин. (московское время 16 час. 50 мин.) получил лёгкие повреждения в результате скользящего удара неразорвавшейся торпеды, которую выпустила ПЛ “Щ-213“. На корпусе судна остался след шириной 60 сантиметров.
http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1357&p=2
It was 2 March (and not 3 Feb) that match with text on town.ural.net http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/h213.php3
It say (if i translate correctly) of unexploded hit but mention minor damage
Here say http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/h213.php3
(Вечером 2 марта «Щ-213» выпустила одну торпеду по одиночному транспорту; взрыва не было. Днем 3 марта торпеда затонула сразу после выстрела по турецкому транспорту «Адана»).
If i'm right this means 2 torpedo attack: first with dud it (and minor damages), second one with no hit.

igorr
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Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by igorr » 28 Apr 2013 06:55

lupodimare89 wrote: Ok, it's that sometimes a topic may have different contents. That one for exemple is named for Soviet ships sunk by German submarines, but in the comments Morozov wrote also his list for Soviet victories.
In any way, full and most precise list of all real victories at every time has only MM. In Russia noone have such big set of various german documents in which losses desribed. All others may only gather data from MM's works and put it togheter.
That's interesting, first or later i will try to face the issue of soviet warships and minelaying results. I've found almost nothing on english online.. (just to know, there is a topic on tsushima.net? I mean, if someone tried to make a list of all ships sunk by Soviet mines laid by destroyers, minelayers, minesweepers, MO class, ecc... and by which ship/s )
I'm almost sure that you can't find correct list even in books. It is hard work to calculate minefield's position and places of sunken ships to reveal who was winner. There is some data there and here, but not full, not 100% correct.
http://www.navypedia.org/ships/romania/ro_es_oltul.htm
It wasn't that ship? Or it was a sister/twin?
http://www.geocities.ws/dangrecu/VaseArm.html#dragoare
Here however is listed among "marittime transport tugs". With 2x20mm and depth charges.
I have one scan from rumanian book of WWII (some kind of official Chronicle). It said that OLTUL was transport tug (requisitioned and armed for Navy tug). No words about minesweeping or sub-chasing.

lupodimare89
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Posts: 447
Joined: 07 Mar 2013 01:32

Re: Soviet Naval Battles (help with info)

Post by lupodimare89 » 28 Apr 2013 09:24

In any way, full and most precise list of all real victories at every time has only MM. In Russia noone have such big set of various german documents in which losses desribed. All others may only gather data from MM's works and put it togheter.
I've read also about another author, Platonov, that should be too good material.(i've read his name mentioned often close to Morozov). He too is active online?
I'm almost sure that you can't find correct list even in books. It is hard work to calculate minefield's position and places of sunken ships to reveal who was winner. There is some data there and here, but not full, not 100% correct.
As i suspected... well, but i think that at least one could focus on the main ones. But we will see later...

Ok,
Now... i think we've almost deal with basic info about submarines in black sea.
I just wanted to know your opinion about the entry for ShCh-213 vs Turkish merchant Adam
That post on tsushima.net seemed quiet genuine (it was a list with all the Turkish confirmed/admitted by them)
It was light damage by unexploded torp. but if there was some kind of damage should be included in the career of the sub.

I've also to say that i was pleasently surprised to find some adds in Morozov lists that are never mentioned in others.
For Black sea an exemple is the submarine ShCh-215, that added 2 damaging on tug Stralsung and barge L-1357 (both were absent in every other list)

And to finish dealing with interesting/doubts things:

L-4
19/Nov/41 sunk German auxiliary minesweeper D-2 with mine.
I've seen this victory as described often as "Bulgarian auxiliary minesweeper W-2". It was a mistake? Or the ship had switched owner? Maybe it was a Bulgarian vessel used by Germans or the opposite.

ShCh-205:
18/May/42 damaged Turkish merchant Duatepe (128 GRT) gunfire.
and damaged Turkish schooner Mahbuba Jahan (20 GTR)gunfire the same day.

These two entries are generally described as sunk in other sites, while Morozov say they were only damaged.
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?188053
Wrecksite mention it as sunk (as almost all the other sources about soviet submarines) and town.ural.ru mention it was sunk on shallow water after being shelled. Maybe it was just partially sunk/run aground and then raised?


PS
Today tsushima.su seems to have problems...

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