Differences between 8,8 cm K-Flak and 10,5 cm ortfest

[Manuferey]

I propose to open this thread to discuss possible differences that would be visible on pictures in order to differentiate two types of WW1 Flak guns (or three types if we include the 8 cm version): the 8,8 cm K-Flak Krupp gun and the 10,5 cm orfest.

I have now noticed some differences between a static WW1 Flak gun and the wheeled 8,8 cm K-Flak (or 8 cm version).

I believe that the Flak gun on a static mounting below is a 10,5 cm orfest. An important feature is a tapered diameter on the barrel. On the 8,8 cm K-Flak there is instead a clean diameter drop. The 8,8 cm K-Flak also features lugs (with fastening holes) under the barrel to fasten the gun support during travel while the static (“ortfest”) gun does not have these attachment points.

1) Pictures of the static gun from this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=208066



2) 8,8 cm K-Flak (from ebay):



3) A WW1 Flak gun « auf Kreuzlafette » : it features the clean diameter drop and the lugs with attachment points. Therefore, if my assumptions of the differences are correct, the WW1 guns « auf Kreuzlafette » would indeed be 8,8 cm K-Flak Krupp guns.



Emmanuel

[Grzesio]

There's a couple more of differences between these alleged 8.8 cm and 10.5 cm guns that can be noticed in the photos.



1. The front part of the recuperator and cradle is significantly longer (or slimmer) in the "8,8 cm" variant - marked with 1 and 3 in the drawing above. The protruding recuperator segment has approximately 2:1 length to diameter ratio in the "8.8 cm" variant, while it's nearly square in the "10.5 cm" (detail 1). There are some six rivets on the side of the protruding part of the "8.8 cm" cradle, while the "10.5 cm" has only three (detail 3).
2. There's a significant space between the breech block of the "10.5 cm" barrel and the recuperator support sleeve, while this gap is much smaller in case of the "8.8 cm" (detail 2). It can be also observed, that the riveted band strengthening rear edge of the recuperator support is generally wider in the "10.5 cm" gun.

Generally, the "10.5 cm" gun seems to be more robust than the "8.8 cm" one, what supports the supposition of its larger calibre.

[Manuferey]

Thank you very much, Grzesio. Great inputs !

So if we use all the differences we have noticed, we can reclassify or confirm the ID of the following guns:

10,5 cm:

From: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1823644


From: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1825632

but this one would be a 8,8 cm on a static mounting.


Another 8,8 cm on static mounting instead of a 10,5 cm:

From: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1875577

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

Here is the same type of 10,5 cm gun on a railcar in WW2 from this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=165497


(Nr. 919500)



The 2nd picture comes from Guy François' book "Eisenbahnartillerie" who identifies the gun as a "10,5 cm Marine Flak L/45". In the same book, Guy Francois (aka ALVF), mentions that a few of these guns were installed on railcars around 1938:



Emmanuel

[jopaerya]

Hello Emmanuel

a other mystery solved

Regards Jos

[vladalex]

Hello for all,
First : Many thanks for Manuferey and Grzesio for this problem finished-resolved.
Second : Into a previous thread ( I d'ont remember the number/date) Clive Mortimer tell us about this gun ( 10,5 cm Flak L/45 ) that is possible to be the Nymphe AA guns ( http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-45_skc06.htm )

Some remark's about this :
- 10,5 cm SK L/45 C/06
- 10,5 cm SK L/45 C/12
- 10,5 cm SK L/45 C/15
- 10,5 cm Tbts.K.L/45
- 10,5 cm Ubts.K.L/45
- 10,5 cm UTOF C/16
- 10,5 cm Flak L/45 , were all, Krupp guns, without not any posibilities to be mounted on the formidable lafette MPLC/30 with +80
degree elevation facilities.

From this point of view, the only gun that was mounted on this lafette-MPLC/30, was of type Rheinmetall 10,5 cm Ubts.Flak
K.L/45 C/28 , wich armed the ex Turkish submarine Batiray , German UA-boot.

The main characteristics of 10,5 cm Flak L/45 , made from him , the starting point for development the 10,5 cm Flak40.

I post to drawings, about this gun in discussion, one mounted on submarine lafette with 50 degree elevation possibilities and
one mounted on MPLC/30 from Flak-Schiff Nymphe.

The last drawing is a little surprise for fans, 10,5 cm SKC/32n.Flak in 10,5 cm Flak MPLC/35- a stabilised AA gun proposed for a
Schnell-Begleitschiff Project in 1935.

Best Regards,

VladAlex.

[Grzesio]

According to Werner Mueller the 10,5 cm Flak L/45 from Krupp was proposed as 10,5 cm K-Zugflak and 10,5 cm O-Flak in 1916, although wheeled variant was not used due to its high weight (one wheeled example is illustrated in photographs though). At the end of the WW1 there were 6 Eisenbahnflak 10,5 cm guns (all Rheinmetall L/35), as well as 38 10,5 cm O-Flak guns (apparently both Rheinmetall and Krupp) in service. (42 pieces of 10,5 cm guns in 1918 are however given by another author).

After the Treaty of Versailles, 35 guns of 8,8 cm and 10,5 cm calibres were left in naval coastal batteries and in Koenigsberg AA defence (as far as I know, their elevation was limited to 42 degrees and they were stripped off the fire control equipment).

A handful of 10,5 cm Flak L/45 data: the projectile was 17,4 kg heavy, contained 0,815 kg HE and was equipped with Z.S. 26 time fuse (with delay train, made by Krupp). The complete round weighted 25.2 kg, muzzle velocity was 720 m/s, range 13 900 m, max altitude 7350 m. 10,5 cm O-Flak L/45 gun weighted 4000 kg (minus the platform) and its rate of fire was 8 rpm.

[Andrzej Ditrich]

Thanks a lot Grzesio for Your detailed and brainy answers

[Manuferey]

After the Treaty of Versailles, 35 guns of 8,8 cm and 10,5 cm calibres were left in naval coastal batteries and in Koenigsberg AA defence (as far as I know, their elevation was limited to 42 degrees and they were stripped off the fire control equipment).

Thank you very much Grzesio. Which book of Werner Mueller are you referencing?

This explains the pictures of 8,8 cm K-Flak that we can see on in Germany in the 20's and 30's and the origins of the 8,8 cm K-Flak "auf Kreuzlafette" of WW2.

It could also explain the designation as "Marine Flak" by Guy François of the "10,5 cm Flak L/45 auf Eisenbahnwagen" above.

Emmanuel

[schwarzermai]

The 2nd picture comes from Guy François' book "Eisenbahnartillerie" who identifies the gun as a "10,5 cm Marine Flak L/45". In the same book, Guy Francois (aka ALVF), mentions that a few of these guns were installed on railcars around 1938:

Emmanuel

hello

2 of these guns on railway were in the

Eisenbahn-Geschütz-Zug 715


St. = in action at bodenständige Organsiation 7.Armee/Heeresgruppe C in 1940
--

2 were in the Stellungs-Batterie 220


Uwe

[Grzesio]

Thank you very much Grzesio. Which book of Werner Mueller are you referencing?

"Deutsche schwere Flak 10,5 cm, 12,8 cm, 15 cm" published in the Waffen Arsenal series in 1990. There are two short chapters - on the general heavy Flak development prior the WW2 and another one on the 10,5 cm Flak L/45.

[Manuferey]

Thank you Uwe and thank you Grzesio!

[Manuferey]

A handful of 10,5 cm Flak L/45 data: the projectile was 17,4 kg heavy, contained 0,815 kg HE and was equipped with Z.S. 26 time fuse (with delay train, made by Krupp). The complete round weighted 25.2 kg, muzzle velocity was 720 m/s, range 13 900 m, max altitude 7350 m. 10,5 cm O-Flak L/45 gun weighted 4000 kg (minus the platform) and its rate of fire was 8 rpm.

A possible ancestor of the 10,5 cm Flak L/45 Krupp gun: a naval 10,5 cm Krupp Flak gun (L/35) mentioned in the 1911 book "The New Art of Flying". The performances are not far from the 10,5 cm O-Flak L/45 above.

"A 10.5 cm. naval gun (Fig. 75) is also made by Krupps. It weighs 3,000 kilos when ready for firing, the projectile 18 kilos, the gun 1,400, the carriage 1,600. Its initial velocity is 700 m. per second, and 13,500 m. and 11,400 m. are given as the extreme range and height attainable. As in the case of the 7.5 cm. gun, it can be elevated through an angle of 75 degrees from the horizontal, and revolved through a complete circle. All these three guns are 35 calibres long. "

Fig. 75:

Source: http://bookdome.com/science/New-Art-Fly ... art-3.html

P.S. In the last chapter of this book, titled "The Flying Machine of the Future", it is written: "Daily trips of one thousand miles would not be extraordinary. It is even conceivable that there will be aeroplane liners which will travel from Europe to America in twenty-four hours."
If you count the time it takes to reach an airport in Paris or London during rush hour traffic, the time spent in line to first check your luggage then to go through security, the actual time to cross the Atlantic, the time to go through immigration upon arrival in the US then to get your luggage back, you can get close to 24 hours traveling from Europe to America! How prescient !

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I think a 10.5cm Flak static gun abandoned

Image from Ebay
Sturm78

[Manuferey]

According to Werner Mueller the 10,5 cm Flak L/45 from Krupp was proposed as 10,5 cm K-Zugflak and 10,5 cm O-Flak in 1916, although wheeled variant was not used due to its high weight (one wheeled example is illustrated in photographs though). At the end of the WW1 there were 6 Eisenbahnflak 10,5 cm guns (all Rheinmetall L/35), as well as 38 10,5 cm O-Flak guns (apparently both Rheinmetall and Krupp) in service. (42 pieces of 10,5 cm guns in 1918 are however given by another author).

After the Treaty of Versailles, 35 guns of 8,8 cm and 10,5 cm calibres were left in naval coastal batteries and in Koenigsberg AA defence (as far as I know, their elevation was limited to 42 degrees and they were stripped off the fire control equipment).
[...]

According to the Times in 1924 (mentioned by the French newsletter La Revue de Paris from November-December 1924), the Allied had discovered that the Germans had installed some guns of the Koenigsberg fortress onto railcars as a direct violation of the Treay of Versailles. It seems to me that it would have been some of the AA guns above. I assume that these railway guns would have been destroyed or dismantled after their discovery.
Do we know which guns were involved?

Emmanuel