Berghof Obersalzberg

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 09 Jul 2014 17:45

Right you are, Pavel, I found it as well, flipping pages in Hoffmann's book. He said:
"The first thing Hitler did when he left his bedroom at the Berghof in the morning was to go straight to the magnificent terrace on the ground floor. There, at a particular time, he usually saw a wonderful and inspiring sight - two gigantic eagles sweeping in high circles through the sky ... Then, one day, to his consternation, he saw but one eagle; what, he wondered anxiously, had happened to the other? ...
A little later ... our column set out from Munich ... we saw a fast-moving car approaching from the opposite direction, and in spite of the speed at which it passed us, Hitler noticed that some great bird with outstretched wings was lying on the back seat. ... 'That was my eagle! ... If I am right, I promise you, gentlemen, that I shall mete out an exemplary punishment to those scoundrels! And not to them alone, but also to the recipient!" ...
About an hour later ... Rattenhuber reported, 'You were quite right, mein Führer. It is the eagle from the mountains.'
'And the recipient?' asked Hitler in menacing tones.
Hesitatingly Rattenhubr continued.
'The eagle was delivered to your Munich residence ... mounted on a marble plinth, which bears the inscription:
TO OUR BELOVED FÜHRER FROM HIS MOUNTAINS
April 20th.
From the Local Party Group
NSDAP Berchtesgaden."

Mannheim
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Mannheim » 09 Jul 2014 22:36

Thanks, Pavel, thanks Geoff. BTW, I just finished your book, Geoff. Loved it. I expect to be in Berchtesgaden next year so I will take it with me as a guide. Any chance you might consider doing one on Nuremberg?
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 13 Jul 2014 10:44

Thanks, Mannheim! I suppose there is room for such an English-language guide to the Third Reich sites in Nürnberg, although the city of Nürnberg doesn't attempt to hide/ignore such sites, as is the case in Berchtesgaden/Obersalzberg. But their interpretive emphasis is on the Reichsparteitagsgelände - the city doesn't call attention to the relevant locations in the Altstadt. And, like most places, there are a couple "hidden" sites that aren't in current guide books. So, yeah, maybe I will start work on something like that. :milwink:

Geoff

Progmetty
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Progmetty » 15 Jul 2014 01:59

Yoooohooooo! Just came in!
Me and the couch are about to be friends again!

Image

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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 15 Jul 2014 03:26

Geoff Walden wrote:Right you are, Pavel, I found it as well, flipping pages in Hoffmann's book. He said:
"The first thing Hitler did when he left his bedroom at the Berghof in the morning was to go straight to the magnificent terrace on the ground floor. There, at a particular time, he usually saw a wonderful and inspiring sight - two gigantic eagles sweeping in high circles through the sky ... Then, one day, to his consternation, he saw but one eagle; what, he wondered anxiously, had happened to the other? ...
A little later ... our column set out from Munich ... we saw a fast-moving car approaching from the opposite direction, and in spite of the speed at which it passed us, Hitler noticed that some great bird with outstretched wings was lying on the back seat. ... 'That was my eagle! ... If I am right, I promise you, gentlemen, that I shall mete out an exemplary punishment to those scoundrels! And not to them alone, but also to the recipient!" ...
About an hour later ... Rattenhuber reported, 'You were quite right, mein Führer. It is the eagle from the mountains.'
'And the recipient?' asked Hitler in menacing tones.
Hesitatingly Rattenhubr continued.
'The eagle was delivered to your Munich residence ... mounted on a marble plinth, which bears the inscription:
TO OUR BELOVED FÜHRER FROM HIS MOUNTAINS
April 20th.
From the Local Party Group
NSDAP Berchtesgaden."
Excellent story, I'm quite sure Hitler would have assumed left the eagle to be.

Do you supposed this story happened as reported or just a poetic piece created by Hoffmann?
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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 15 Jul 2014 03:31

Never mind Geoff, I just back read and saw your opinion.
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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 15 Jul 2014 03:34

Annelie wrote:I am sure this has been answered before but not sure where I can locate the answer.

How big was the garage in the Berghof and how many cars did it hold?
Did the cars drive in and then back out?
Annelie

Always one with the same questions in my head!

One might also wonder of which special gift cars were kept at the Berghof; and there must have been alternate garages on top of the hill and such. As long as some of the Benz's were; it must have been a good trick backing them in and out. Having been there and seeing the widened end of the drive I don't think a VW Bug could have turned around there.
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wartourist
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by wartourist » 16 Jul 2014 22:17

Geoff Walden, gentlemen,

This is a very interesting thread and I might find the answer to my question if I read it all, but I hope you will forgive if I pose a question that probably already has been dealt with here.

I am currently re-reading Ziemke; Battle for Berlin (1968), and I stumbled over something I would like verification for. On page 85, he writes: “The Russians were drawing close to the army communications centre at Zossen and could be there almost any hour [April 20]. The only comparable installation (my italics) in Germany was the one in the Berghof complex outside Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps. There, throughout the war, Hitler had vacationed every year with Eva Braun … and an elaborate communications system had been set up for his use at those times … Hitler had indicated in late March [1945] that he regarded them as the best alternative command post if Zossen were bombed out and lost.”

I have never heard of anything just remotely comparable to Zossen in terms of sophistication in communication equipment and would like to pick you brains as to whether this statement from Ziemke actually holds water?

Thanks
Dan

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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 17 Jul 2014 03:24

Dan

If I am not mistaken what you may be talking about was in the Turken; I believe Misch revealed that randomly or privately to the Groundskeeper. My memory is not clear at the moment.

What scale I have no idea.

Steve
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PavelH
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by PavelH » 17 Jul 2014 07:37

I have never heard of anything just remotely comparable to Zossen in terms of sophistication in communication equipment and would like to pick you brains as to whether this statement from Ziemke actually holds water?

Thanks
Dan
N2 Obersalzberg

http://oldillusion.weebly.com/keller2-n2.html
and of course Geoff`s pages
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/miscbldgsosb2.htm

P.

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 17 Jul 2014 10:20

Hi all,

I can't really back this up with research ... that is, concrete data on the Berghof and Türken switchboards ... but I don't see ANY way that the Obersalzberg communications facilities were in any form comparabale to what was at Zossen. Or at the Wolfsschanze, for that matter, or Amt 10 at Ohrdruf (and maybe the Nachrichten center at Giessen too, and others as well). I have been in the Zeppelin Bunker at Zossen, and seen photos of the communications layouts there. Same with the OKH communications center at Mauerwald, near the Wolfsschanze, and the Nachrichten bunkers at the Wolfsschanze itself. These communications centers were HUGE, with banks of switchboards and miles of cables. I've only seen one or two photos of the switchboards at the Türken and the Berghof (and, I think, also at the air defense command and control center in the Vordereck tunnel), and they were all simple switchboards - nothing elaborate.

So, my opinion is ... Ziemke's statement doesn't hold up. I'd like to know his source for that quote that Hitler thought the OSB system was a good alternative ... OK, maybe so, because by that time, all or most of the rest of the big military communications centers had already been overrun, or nearly so. OK, yeah, I could see Hitler thinking this, in late March 1945. But that would be because the OSB was by then the ONLY alternative, but not at all comparable to Zossen in capacity.

"N2" ... The legend grows. :milwink: I'm sure that Florian Beierl never thought, when he first wrote that, what a "secret place" that cellar would become. "N2" has passed into the realm of the "Nazi Bell," atom bomb, secret super wonder weapons, little green boxes, etc. Basically, "N2" was supposedly the code for a mobile radio station in a van, that was apparently parked in the area near that cellar off the Kehlsteinstrasse, in the final days of the war. Communicating with ... somebody ... It's very likely that the cellar we see today actually had nothing at all to do with "N2," unless the Nachrichten personnel took shelter there at night. But that communications van was only supposedly in that area for a handful of days anyway.

Geoff

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Max
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 17 Jul 2014 13:57

Geoff Walden wrote:
About the garage/driveway ... I'm speculating here, because I have never read this sort of detail anywhere. But just based on the size/configuration of the driveway and garage, the drivers must have driven up to the steps, let their passengers out, then backed back down the driveway. There was not sufficient room to turn those limos around either inside the garage or at the top of the driveway. (I really don't remember the inside of the garage being that big, in relation to the size of those Mercedes cars, as it shows in that modern blueprint.) I don't think they could even turn the VW Cabriolet around there (maybe with a 10-point turn). To pick passengers up, they must have backed up into the driveway ... I can imagine this must at times have been what the Army calls a "goat rope" (and other more descriptive terms).

Geoff
From the plans, the paving stones on the terrace appear to be 1 x 1 metre
Therefore the drive is 12 metres wide at the indicated place.
My diagram scales with this.

According to this reference, a Mercedes-Benz 770 W07(K) Grosser. had a turning radius of 7.05 metres
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/mb77007.htm
It would seem then that a driver might easily turn the car in 4 movements without having to back down the drive.
Power steering would have been handy though.

Max
berghof car.jpg
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Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 17 Jul 2014 21:14

Max

I understand your drawing, nice. But having been there I do not think the logistics are good in real life.

I am very handy at driving; I go places 99% of normal people would never do, this driveway would not be for the faint hearted at turning around. What the drawing does not take into account is the steep terrain the edge of the drive; not a straight cliff mind you, but certainly enough to make a seasoned driver nervous doing a turn around. There is an immediate 20 foot drop or so at the window point.

My opinion aside I would like to know what really happened.
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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Annelie » 17 Jul 2014 22:15

Glad I am not the only one that thinks this maneuver seems pretty difficult especially
in winter months. Considering the amount of thought and detail went into the designing
of the Berghof I wonder if there was something in place that we just don't know?

Don't know why I wonder about it but I suppose its because those roads can be
treacherous as Steven says for the faint of heart of which I am one :-0

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Steve Hoog
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Steve Hoog » 18 Jul 2014 01:11

Annelie

You hit the nail on the head, this property started development before the car craze took over.
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