HeS 30 not cancelled

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stg 44
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HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by stg 44 » 13 Oct 2013 20:59

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_30
What if the HeS 30 jet engine hadn't been cancelled in 1942 just as it was showing promise? I seems it could have been ready about a year or more earlier than the Jumo 004 and would have not been much less powerful than the Jumo, but much lighter, smaller, and resource intensive. It also would have likely had better engine life, but at the cost of higher amounts of strategic materials, but given the huge waste of such on the V-2 project (the nozzles needed lots of high heat resistant metals), not to mention the requirements for piston engine fighters or the many Jumo 004s that wore out quickly.

This could have meant the He-280 fighter would have been ready for operations in late 1943, not to mention the Me262 itself. Was this a viable path for the German jet engine project?

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Tim Smith
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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by Tim Smith » 13 Oct 2013 23:09

Yes, I think a Heinkel He 280 powered by the HeS 30 would have been a viable fighter.

However, I don't agree that it would have been in production any earlier than the Me 262 on Jumo 004's, because the HeS 30 was a year and a half behind the Jumo 004 in development. Even if that time is regained by the HeS 30 not suffering anything like as many reliability issues as the Jumo 004 (unlikely though that is) it won't be ready for production any earlier.

See this post from another forum:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviati ... post691877
Heinkel HeS 30 Engine.
Heinkel HeS 30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
it was not until May 1942 that the first engine actually ran
by October it was running at full speed.
If these statements are true the HeS 30 engine didn't even operate at full power (miniscule as it was) until October 1942. That puts it considerably behind Jumo004A engine development.

Jumo004A engine timeline.
11 Oct 1940.
Jumo004A engine runs for the first time. 19 months earlier then the HeS 30 engine.

January 1941.
Jumo004A engine runs at full power. 19 months earlier then the HeS 30 engine.

December 1941.
Jumo004A engine passes 10 hour endurance test. When did the HeS 30 engine reach this milestone?

January 1942.
Jumo004A engine enters low rate production. At this point the HeS 30 engine has yet to run.

18 July 1942.
Me-262 prototype flies for the first time powered by Jumo004 engines. Meanwhile the HeS 30 engine has yet to run at full power.

Looks to me like the He-100 and He-118 story all over again. Heinkel HeS 30 engine development was 19 months behind the competition. Can 1942 Germany afford to forego production of the Me-262 powered by Jumo004 engines while waiting for Heinkel to catch up? I don't think so.

David1819
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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by David1819 » 30 Aug 2014 18:19

stg 44 wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_30
What if the HeS 30 jet engine hadn't been cancelled in 1942 just as it was showing promise? I seems it could have been ready about a year or more earlier than the Jumo 004 and would have not been much less powerful than the Jumo, but much lighter, smaller, and resource intensive. It also would have likely had better engine life, but at the cost of higher amounts of strategic materials, but given the huge waste of such on the V-2 project (the nozzles needed lots of high heat resistant metals), not to mention the requirements for piston engine fighters or the many Jumo 004s that wore out quickly.

This could have meant the He-280 fighter would have been ready for operations in late 1943, not to mention the Me262 itself. Was this a viable path for the German jet engine project?
It would have made very little difference compared to the Junkers Jumo 004. What let the whole Jet program down was goering's lack of interest or investment in Jet fighters in the early years of the war. Plus Hitler insisted the ME262 also be a bomber compromising the whole effectiveness of the aircraft. The Heinkel_HeS_30 would probably have suffered the same set back if mass produced as Hitler would most probably insist it be a mulitpurpose bomber :(

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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by maltesefalcon » 31 Aug 2014 05:11

The other thing that hampered all the jet programs was lack of materials.

Specifically no high temp alloys due to loss of territory and pressing needs for the entire war effort.

German jets gave satisfactory combat performance, but the turbines simply burnt up too early.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Sep 2014 23:31

I can see ONE 'orrible weakness in the He 280 in regards to it being a practical fighter....or even a practical aircraft...
that non-castoring nosewheel. It caused SO many taxiing accidents when used in the Me262, and cost the lives of several prop aces in the process.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by Cantankerous » 04 Oct 2023 02:12

David1819 wrote:
30 Aug 2014 18:19
stg 44 wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_HeS_30
What if the HeS 30 jet engine hadn't been cancelled in 1942 just as it was showing promise? I seems it could have been ready about a year or more earlier than the Jumo 004 and would have not been much less powerful than the Jumo, but much lighter, smaller, and resource intensive. It also would have likely had better engine life, but at the cost of higher amounts of strategic materials, but given the huge waste of such on the V-2 project (the nozzles needed lots of high heat resistant metals), not to mention the requirements for piston engine fighters or the many Jumo 004s that wore out quickly.

This could have meant the He-280 fighter would have been ready for operations in late 1943, not to mention the Me262 itself. Was this a viable path for the German jet engine project?
It would have made very little difference compared to the Junkers Jumo 004. What let the whole Jet program down was goering's lack of interest or investment in Jet fighters in the early years of the war. Plus Hitler insisted the ME262 also be a bomber compromising the whole effectiveness of the aircraft. The Heinkel_HeS_30 would probably have suffered the same set back if mass produced as Hitler would most probably insist it be a mulitpurpose bomber :(
The RLM claimed that the Heinkel HeS 30 was too small to power any combat aircraft when justifying its decision to cancel the HeS 30 in favor of the BMW 003 and Jumo 004, even though the HeS 30's power-to-weight ratio was higher than that of the BMW 003 and Jumo 004. Since the HeS 30 was smaller than the BMW 003 and Jumo 004 despite having a high power-to-weight ratio, it could thus have been optimal for a lightweight jet fighter like the Heinkel He 162 or unbuilt Blohm und Voss P.211.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Oct 2023 02:51

Wagner's HeS 30 (aka RLM 006 engine) was Wagner couldn't get it to work well enough to make it a viable choice. For example, he had serious issues with compressor-turbine mismatch. That is the turbine speed and blade design left the compressor underperforming badly. Wagner thought he could fix this by using adjustable turbine blades.

What he didn't understand was it wasn't only the pitch but the actual profile of the blade that made a difference.

This a pretty common problem for German jet engineers at the time. BMW ran into it on their 003 and spent about two years fixing it. The problem for Germany was they didn't have the massive steam and gas turbine industry the British and US had. They did have access to Brown-Boveri in Switzerland who was one of the largest manufacturers of those in Europe.

In the US, GE had Stanford Moss and his team with over a decade of testing turbochargers and blade profiling for gas turbines. Westinghouse was a massive steam turbine manufacturer. In Britain Rolls Royce and Vickers (Metrovik) had lots of steam and gas turbine experience from building naval turbines to draw on. So, they started with an advantage.

In Wagner's case, he was working on a limited budget with a limited team. He understood the principles of axial jet turbines well enough, but it was the details to make them work efficiently that eluded him. He couldn't get the 006 to work when he was at Junkers, and he couldn't get it to work when he moved to Henkel. Henkel and the RLM were correct in cutting his program in favor of engines that either worked or showed more promise like v. Ohain's 011.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: HeS 30 not cancelled

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Oct 2023 13:00

Thread Necromancy from 2013 brought to people by Cantankerous. Topic locked.

Terry

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