Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

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RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 15 Sep 2014 15:52

gary-1944 wrote: This is the third time I have tried to post this.
Are you having trouble replying again?
(snip) The Rangers were being fired at by the guns as they approached. So there is no question that the guns were still there.
I don't believe anyone is disputing that?
The main reason for this post is however to help with the other main issue… where was battery 10 of the 1716th Artillery on D-day.
That was established long ago from the German records. 10./Art.Regt. 1716. was NE of Bayeaux near Sommervieu.
A battery… previously unknown was at position 16A - of that there is no doubt. The following account is self evident and I have other evidence - which includes the wheels dug up from the position etc. This is an extract from my book which highlights the fate of those guns on the 7th of June.
The identity of the battery may have been previously unknown, but it's location was not "unknown" at the time or that such a battery was there. It was identified as "16A" by the Allies after 10 April 1944 when Annex 12 of the First Army OPLAN NEPTUNE was amended. The evidence you have dug up would tend to confirm what you were told long ago, which is that the battery at 16A was one of the batteries of IV./Art.Regt. 352. and not 10./1716. That would also correspond with the 352. Inf.-Div. moving up to take over the coastal positions after 15 March; it is likely the new battery position was established after that and not identified by PR until after the 10 April "cut off".
But the most compelling piece of evidence has just surfaced from the archives of the 1st Infantry Division S-2 Intelligence After Action Reports.
This is part of what is so frustrating in conversing with you...the 1st Infantry Division had no role in the reduction of the Grandcamp-Maisy-Château de Géfosse position on 9 June. At that time, the 1st Infantry Division zone was east of the north-south line running from just west of Mosles to just west of Balleroy. The action at Grandcamp-Maisy was in the zone of the 29th Infantry Division.
I have other unit information stating that the Artillery men of the 1716th Artillery were "fighting at infantry" at Maisy during the battle.
What is that other unit information?
As the 1st Infantry Division were the ones involved in that attack… its not a stretch to say that this confirms where the 10th Battery of the 1716th were and when.
But they were not involved in that attack so it is actually a considerable stretch to say that.
Here is the evidence. Unless anyone can produce firm - period evidence -
Such evidence has presented to you - such as the German battery "station lists" - numerous times and yet you keep returning to this.
But as ever, these forums are a great source of info. So if anyone can expand on this it would help the debate.
What debate? What is there to be debated? We know there were three battery positions in the area:

III./Art.-Regt. 1716 (- 10. Bttr.) had its Gefechtsstand at Le Cambe and 8. Bttr. at Maisy La Martiniere (AKA Wn 84, "Brasilia", Maisy II, Target 16, vT528916, Lat 49.37422 Long -1.0681) with four 10cm le.F.H. 14/19 (t)) and 9. Bttr. at Maisy Les Perruques (AKA Wn 83, "Maisy", Maisy I, Target 5, vT533918, Lat 49.37611 Long -1.06134) with four 15cm s.F.H. 414 (f)).

IV./Art.-Regt. 352 had one of its three batteries at Maisy Ferme Foucher (AKA Maisy III, Target 16A, vT531914, Lat 49.37255 Long -1.06385) with four 15cm s.F.H.

Note that another of the batteries of IV./Art.-Regt. 356 was at Longueville, while the third batteries location remains unknown (given the layout of the other two I suspect it was somewhere between Formigny and Etreham).

[edited to correct "356" to 352...du-uh]
Last edited by RichTO90 on 15 Sep 2014 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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bunker14
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by bunker14 » 15 Sep 2014 20:32

RichTO90 wrote:
III./Art.-Regt. 1716 (- 10. Bttr.) had its Gefechtsstand at Le Cambe and 8. Bttr. at Maisy La Martiniere (AKA Wn 84, "Brasilia", Maisy II, Target 16, vT528916, Lat 49.37422 Long -1.0681) with four 10cm le.F.H. 14/19 (t)) and 9. Bttr. at Maisy Les Perruques (AKA Wn 83, "Maisy", Maisy I, Target 5, vT533918, Lat 49.37611 Long -1.06134) with four 15cm s.F.H. 414 (f)).

IV./Art.-Regt. 356 had one of its three batteries at Maisy Ferme Foucher (AKA Maisy III, Target 16A, vT531914, Lat 49.37255 Long -1.06385) with four 15cm s.F.H.

Note that another of the batteries of IV./Art.-Regt. 356 was at Longueville, while the third batteries location remains unknown (given the layout of the other two I suspect it was somewhere between Formigny and Etreham).
Hi

the II./1352 AR was few km south of Maisy

the "16A" was the position of the 8/1716 in March / April 1944 during the building of the bunkers R612 to protect them from bombing (as at the Pointe du Hoc or Vers sur mer, Riva Bella/Ouistreham)

On this German map from April 1944, the 8/1716 is placed at the "16A"

In June 6, 1944 three Bunkers R612 are completed, so three of 10cm 14/19 (t) are probably in place at Wn84?
So it can remains one 10cm 14/19 (t) at point 16A awaiting the fourth R612 was completed?
Image

on this map, i think someone has forgot to read one thing
For the 16A, in red "gun being moved into 16"
so, 16A was the position of the 8/1716 before being placed in the R612

Image

RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 15 Sep 2014 22:27

bunker14 wrote:the II./1352 AR was few km south of Maisy
Indeed, its Gefechtsstand was at Saint-Clément, Osmanville, but that is not in question. BTW, it was Art.-Regt. 352. until it was reconstituted on 21 September 1944 at Flensburg.
the "16A" was the position of the 8/1716 in March / April 1944 during the building of the bunkers R612 to protect them from bombing (as at the Pointe du Hoc or Vers sur mer, Riva Bella/Ouistreham)

On this German map from April 1944, the 8/1716 is placed at the "16A"

In June 6, 1944 three Bunkers R612 are completed, so three of 10cm 14/19 (t) are probably in place at Wn84?
So it can remains one 10cm 14/19 (t) at point 16A awaiting the fourth R612 was completed?
That is possible, but if the wheels of a 15cm s.F.H. were dug at 16A then it seems logical that at some time during the battle there were also 15cm s.F.H. there...and the sole candidate for that would be one of the batteries of IV./Art.-Regt. 352. I believe?

BTW, good to see someone is still interested in discussing the subject.

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Manuferey
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 16 Sep 2014 01:23

I’d be curious to know if the wheels were actually of the gun carriage itself or of its trailer used for road transportation. In any case, without any other pieces of the gun laying around and in particular the barrel, I’m not sure that the dug out wheels prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were left over from a gun that was intentionally brought there by the Germans in June 1944 and not brought back after the war for instance as part of a trailer used by a French farmer or mine removal operations. Post-war « contamination » of the site cannot be discounted. :cry:

Emmanuel

RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 16 Sep 2014 02:56

Manuferey wrote:I’d be curious to know if the wheels were actually of the gun carriage itself or of its trailer used for road transportation. In any case, without any other pieces of the gun laying around and in particular the barrel, I’m not sure that the dug out wheels prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were left over from a gun that was intentionally brought there by the Germans in June 1944 and not brought back after the war for instance as part of a trailer used by a French farmer or mine removal operations. Post-war « contamination » of the site cannot be discounted. :cry:
Sadly that is all too true...but I hold out for it being a likely location for one of those mysterious batteries of IV./Art.-Regt. 352. :D

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bunker14
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by bunker14 » 16 Sep 2014 12:46

RichTO90 wrote: Sadly that is all too true...but I hold out for it being a likely location for one of those mysterious batteries of IV./Art.-Regt. 352. :D
Hi

the IV./1352 AR was 4 km south of Pointe du Hoc (Deux jumeaux Area)
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RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 16 Sep 2014 13:07

[quote="bunker14"]the IV./1352 AR was 4 km south of Pointe du Hoc (Deux jumeaux Area)


Interesting. That's the first time I have seen them placed on a map. What is the date of the map?

It looks like the Gefechtsstand is in the Chateau D'Agneaux? I was tracking Asnières en Bessin? With the three batteries roughly in a line from vic. Douville to the vic. Deux-Jumeaux? That fits with one of the batteries being near Longueville.

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bunker14
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by bunker14 » 16 Sep 2014 17:40

RichTO90 wrote: What is the date of the map?

It looks like the Gefechtsstand is in the Chateau D'Agneaux? I was tracking Asnières en Bessin? With the three batteries roughly in a line from vic. Douville to the vic. Deux-Jumeaux? That fits with one of the batteries being near Longueville.
this map is from April / May 1944

RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 16 Sep 2014 17:46

bunker14 wrote:this map is from April / May 1944
Excellent! Thanks! That fills in one of the final gaps then. :)

Cheers!

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 17 Sep 2014 01:34

bunker14 wrote:
RichTO90 wrote: What is the date of the map?
this map is from April / May 1944
The only problem I have with this map is that it refers to Art.-Regt 1352 instead of 352. :?

The Gliederung of 352 ID of May 1st, 1944 as well as the telephone log of 352 ID on June 6, 1944 both refer to an Art.-Regt 352, not 1352.

AFAIK, AR 352 was changed to AR 1352 at the end of 1944 (it appears for instance as AR 1352 in the Frontnachweiser of December 1944).

Emmanuel

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Artee » 17 Sep 2014 07:10

Folks,

Nice to see the vigorous debate still raging…

On the subject of the armament & location of 10./1716 on D-Day it seems many of us are still confused - despite the fact that the puzzle has already been solved on this very thread (not solved by me, I‘ll add). If some of the following seems plagiarised it’s because I’m not basing it on guess work - it’s a summary of various peoples great efforts.

By the time the Allies decided to land in France the 716 infantry Division had formed eleven batteries. In short, on 06Jun44 10./1716 was equipped with 4 x 15.5 cm sFH414 (f) (Field post No. 39308 D). The Battery was likely positioned between Formigny & St Laurent Sur Mer near La Londel (or Le Monchet ). A contemporary German map (likely dated some time after March) specifically identifies 10./1716 exactly where Allied Air Reconnaissance/Intelligence tentatively identified a four gun position (Grid Ref 657875 on the Allied map, which is accurate to 20May44). I am attaching edited parts of both maps (both of which come from omahabeach.vierville.free.fr/)

The YouTube link provided by bunker14 (on 10Sep) is particularly interesting. On 12Jul44 US Signal Corps cameramen filmed “Nazi Gun emplacements” at “St Laurent”. The footage shows a gun position with several howitzers in a field position (complete with personnel dugouts and underground ammunition storage). The howitzers are all 15.5 cm sFH414 (f). The position has clearly been hit Allied artillery or naval guns. At least two of the howitzers appears to have been spiked ie. destroyed by own crews (or by US engineers after the position was captured). Of note a close up of one the gun shields shows the gunners were using “7 Lag” (ie. Charge 7) at a range of 3050m - which correlates almost exactly with information depicted on the contemporary German map.

Conclusion: 10./1716 was in action in the Omaha area - firing on American forces landing on Dog and/or Easy beaches. The Battery was shelled on 06June and/or 07June. It was probably abandoned late on 07June as US forces pushed south - the gunners destroying their guns in the process (from “Omaha Beachhead” on 07June: “The 3d Battalion of the 26th Infantry, advancing down the St-Laurent road, had been stopped a half-mile short of Formigny by strong resistance from machine-gun nests and made no progress for the rest of the day…”). The three men of 10./1716 captured on 09June (likely then fighting as infantry) were probably made POW as German forces attempted to withdraw south.

On 06June 11./1716 was equipped with 6 x 15cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (Sd.Kfz.135/1) (Battery Commander Oberleutnant Rudolf Schaaf, Field Post No. 09664 W). During April 44 the 716th Division formed a “Gerätbatterie” with the Self Propelled guns still available in the LXXXIV Corps sector. Indeed, the neighbouring 711th Infantry Division had apparently acquired a Self Propelled battery about the same time, though neither the 01May44 Kriegsgliederung of the 716th or 711th list their respective SP Batteries. The 716th’s only motorised artillery battery apparently became operational, as 11./1716, some time in early May. This new self propelled battery was called “Graf Waldersee” (hence considerable confusion in various histories).

Conclusion: On the morning of D-Day 11./1716 aka Graf Waldersee was at Plumetot ie. in the Sword area, where it fought against British forces landing on Queen beach. By the end of 06June 11./1716 aka Gaf Waldersee had just three SP guns still in action.

Artee
10. 1716 near Omaha....jpg
Probable sFH414 (f) of 10. 1716.jpg
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RichTO90
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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Sep 2014 12:33

Manuferey wrote:The only problem I have with this map is that it refers to Art.-Regt 1352 instead of 352. :?
Indeed I noticed that as well, but had no explanation. I think it possible the staff officer drawing up the map may have simply continued from "AR 1716." to "AR 352", but then conflated the "1" onto the second unit? Otherwise it seems inexplicable.

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by RichTO90 » 17 Sep 2014 12:40

Artee wrote:Nice to see the vigorous debate still raging…
Thanks for the excellent summary. I think you've probably hit it on the head. That would indicate there was a last minute shuffle of 10./Art.-Regt. 1716. from NE of Bayeaux to its new position, leaving the new 11. Batterie in the old position. 10. Batterie then would likely have been re-attached to its "parent" III. Abteilung at Maisy for command and fire control, while 11. Batteries would remain with I. Abteilung?

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Artee » 18 Sep 2014 00:35

Rich,

I'm not sure it was a last minute shuffle (probably more like a a month or so). On the German map you can see that units of the 352nd are in place. 10./1716 appears to be fully incorporated in the 352nd's plans...

Of interest, in Wilhelm Richter's post war 'report' [FMS B621] even he got Graf Waldersee's Battery number wrong. He used the Batteries 'old' number referring to "10.1716 (mot)" instead of it's new number ie. 11./1716 (whilst the 716th Division's post action report only refers to the Battery by name). Richter nevertheless provided detailed information on the deployment of the 716th's Artillery. Note! He didn't refer to those units of the 716th in KVA Bayeux (ie. subordinate to the 352nd), nor did the 716th's post action report.

Richter stated:

“The artillery was under command of the regimental commander of the A.R. 1716 who was at the same time the Artl. Fuehrer of the division. Under his command were: the I/1716, the II./1716, the 10./1716, 1 Abt. 21. Pz. Div, X Heeresartl, Abtl. 989 and headquarters Heereskuestenart. Abtl with two shore batteries….the artillery was organised in three artillery groups: right, left center…Left group: Commander of the II./1716, 3 batteries of the II./1716, 1 Heereskuesten battery of the II.1260. Centre group: Commander of the Heeresartl. -Abt 989, Heeresartl.- abtl 989, the 10.1716 (mot) Right group: Commander of the I./1716, the 2./ Battr. East of the Orne, the 2./ battr. West of the Orne, the Pz.Art.abt21.Pz.Div.(A.R.155), the I./1260."

Artee

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Re: Artillery in Normandy 6.6.1944

Post by Manuferey » 18 Sep 2014 02:19

I'm going back to the excerpt below of the Bauprogramme of June 1st, 1944 posted by Jos in July 2011
(see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1611239)
as the information about 10./1716 is confusing based on what we're discussing:
- its position is written as "4 km nord-osw Bayeux" which I understand to mean "nord-ostwärts Bayeux" ie. northeast of Bayeux. Note that Formigny is located instead at about 15 km northwest of Bayeux.
- it is still called "Graf Waldersee".

There seems to be some confusion as well for the Germans (or it could be the same writer as the one who wrote AR 1352 instead of AR 352 on the map above :lol:).

Image

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