Not as much as I was when it started Aber. AFAIAC, it would have worked and I won the debate. In short-Aber wrote:Are you still mad about it?ChristopherPerrien wrote:Back in the day; 24 pages of going therejohn2 wrote:Sorry if this has been brought up before. I know an invasion in 1942 was not possible because the US had just entered the war but I haven't heard any good reasons there was no attempt in '43.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=round+up
Churchill wanted the Med in 1943, so Operation Husky happened instead. That is the truth why Round-up did not occur in the summer of 1943.
IIRC< When it got to the point that I said no panthers got to France in 1943. Because it was brought up about the Germans getting armor to the beachhead at some point in time. Mind you Round-Up would have landed in July-Aug 1943 timeframe. And finally some yahoo(no offense) said 150 Panthers, got to France in DECEMBER !(@#$&) 1943, I just gave up then on furthering the debate, to win more points of contention in favor of Round-up.
Anyway, pretty sure those were the D model worn out/rejects from Russia. But even if they weren't, Round-up in the historical would have landed on the beach, and got off the beach, even with all the skeptics here. Given the historical minor German forces/opposition(they had few units to move and could move to France in 1943) and no Atlantic Wall (wasn't built then). Even with the historical pro gnome POV problem, and even with some of the actual force involved sitting on the beach drinking tea(Patton's aid not me*). .
We had enough force and firepower. We had enough air support to win air superiority over the beaches in the landing and then over France by moving air units. And there was enough lift for the units and logistical support in July/August(witness Op Husky). We had the U-boat problem beat in May 43 (historically true ) If the Germans were gonna fight the Allies somewhere in France or the SiegFried Line in December 1943 :roll: .Oh well, then it proves , Round-up would have worked.
Kudos to Rich for giving the best fire support in real figures on the issue. He shot up a lot of my propositions. But the figs he provided usually gave lie favorable to the points I was trying to make. Which was what I was trying to do, by suckering him in, in the first place. . If you want hard hard figs on landing in France in WWII, or a lot of accurate info on WWII or other militaria stuff like tanks and such, Rich is one of the best historians in the world. We are lucky to have him and I was and am honored that he stoops down to debate here and provide info. Soundboarding goes boths ways, I figure.
Overall, I am happy for the end result. , Am I still mad? Of course , but I am more sad than mad because I failed to convince a lot of skeptics. But hey, they still believe the British POV that infests the history books/green books and colors many of the issues about it. Hard to change that. Might crack it though. As I state and stated back then,
Churchill wanted the Med in 1943, so Operation Husky happened, that is the basic reason why Round-up did not occur in 1943.
It fits in the historical, and answers a-lot of questions. Round up was operationally and logistically possible and would have worked. Kudos to all who participated back then. Wish I could do the work and research to write the book, because that topic and debate is only the tip of Iceberg , and was really messy; But that is now impossible for me to do. Somebody else may 100 years down the road. I hope my topic pops up then and somebody mentions/footnotes me. Who knows?
Regards to all ,
Chris
*(actual-IIRC , "If The British don't get off the beach soon , They'll have grass and limpets growing up one leg")