German Railways in the East

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GregSingh
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Re: broad gauge Velyki Luki-Rzhev line

#511

Post by GregSingh » 26 Aug 2015, 04:00

stg 44 wrote: as far as I know during October 1941-January 1942 period it was not used at all.
Kommandeur der Eisenbahnpioniere Mitte (Eisb.Pi.Rgt.1) report dated 21.October 1941 has this:
Akte 160 - p152.jpg
Akte 160 - page 152
It seems that line was seriously damaged and could not be used at all. They decided to repaired only Vyazma - Rzhev line. Further in the same report they planned for Vyazma - Rzhev line to be available in mid-November.
And before you could get to Rzhev, Smolensk - Vyazma had to be repaired as well.
Not a nice picture overall...

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Re: German Railways in the East

#512

Post by GregSingh » 26 Aug 2015, 07:55

Earlier in this topic we posted examples of complains about quality of railroad travel in late 1942 near Stalingrad.
Here is Nov/Dec 1941 round trip Smolensk - Warsaw example.

Unteroffizer reports:
(1) 24 and 11 hours delays in overall trip
(2) unheated wagons
(3) compartments in a completely polluted state

But even if we look at original timetable (on the left) it seems pretty generous with time.
10 hours wait in Minsk and near 7 in Malaczewicze, with average speed on Smolensk - Minsk - Malaczewicze route (excluding waiting periods) around 23km/h. A bit better on Malaczewicze - Warsaw route - 34km/h.

And Smolensk is not really that far to the East...
Akte 160 - page 32.jpg
Dec '41 round trip Smolensk - Warschau


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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German Railways in the East

#513

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 26 Aug 2015, 09:35

The Collection also includes documents from OKW and OKH among others:

Kartensammlung des Generalstabes der Heeresgruppe Mitte: Karten von Verpflegungslagern, Zustand der Rollbahnen, Fernsprechleitungsskizzen, Schaltskizzen der Nachrichtenverbindungen, der Eisenbahnlage, zum Einsatz von Versorgungsregimentern Karten der Befestigungsanlagen bei Grodno u.a.,

OKH, Generalquartiermeister IV: Richtlinien des OKH für die Einstellung und Entlohnung einheimischer (russischer und ukrainischer) Arbeitskräfte bei der Eisenbahn; Schreiben und Anweisungen der Feldeisenbahndirektionen der Eisenbahnen Nr. 2, 3, 9. Sonderbefehle über die Bestrafung der Diebstähle der Wehrmachtangehörigen. Technische Fragen des Eisenbahnbetriebes. Richtlinien für die Verpflegung und den Arbeitseinsatz der sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen.

Unterlagen des Ib der Heeresgruppe B: Aktennotizen zu Besprechungen des Sonderbevollmächtigten für die Regelung der Osttransporte, zu Besprechungen hinsichtlich der Eisenbahn-Truppentransporte von West nach Ost, Notizen für das KTB u.a.

Eisenbahntransportfragen bei der Wehrmacht im Osten anläßlich des Krieges gegen die UdSSR (März 1941 - Januar 1942).

Unterlagen des Ic der Heeresgruppe Mitte: V-Mann- und Überläufermeldungen des Abwehrkommandos 103, Meldungen über Gefangenenaussagen, Unterlagen zum Einsatz des Sonderverbandes Graukopf, zu Sondereinsätzen der Abwehr gegen sowjetische Eisenbahnlinien u.a.

Unterlagen des Oberkommandos der Heeresgruppe Mitte (Ia, General des Transportwesens) zu Fragen von Eisenbahntransporten und Tagesmeldung des Ia der Heeresgruppe vom 30.4.943

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German Railways in the East

#514

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Oct 2015, 19:55

Organisation Todt - Construction Group Ertl
Building of the Don Bridge in October 1942
Page 5 - Copy.jpg
Page 6 - Copy.jpg
Page 7 - Copy.jpg
Page 8 - Copy.jpg
Page 9 - Copy.jpg

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German Railways in the East

#515

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Oct 2015, 20:07

Page 10 - Copy.jpg
What I am unclear about is what is meant by the phrase "RI Equipment" which seems to refer a field railway? It could be "Route Indicator" Equipment?

Dann Falk
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Re: German Railways in the East

#516

Post by Dann Falk » 05 Oct 2015, 17:29

I remember an account about how the Luftwaffe made a big effort to destroy a certain RR bridge after Stalingrad. I think it was this bridge, over the Don, after the Soviets finished the repairs the Germans started.

GregSingh
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Re: German Railways in the East

#517

Post by GregSingh » 29 Oct 2015, 01:55

Report from NARA is about a road bridge in Rostov on Don (Die Straßenbrücke über den Don bei Rostow).

OT BBL Ertl (Organisation Todt Brückenbauleitung Dr. Ertl) was responsible for rebuilding the road bridge (not a railroad bridges further west).
Road bridge was destroyed by Luftwaffe on the 17th of July 1942.
Bombers from II./KG 55 equipped with Lotfe Fernrohr 7D (Lofte 7D bombsight) inflicted several direct hits from a height of 5000 meters.

Here is a photo from the attack, partially damaged railroad bridges are at the bottom.
Rostov42.jpg
Rostov on Don bridges July 1942
Today there is no bridge at this location.

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Re: General Gercke Brücke

#518

Post by GregSingh » 04 Dec 2015, 04:29

Back in May 2015 we had a photo of General Gercke Bridge in Pervomaisk (Mykolaiv Oblast), Ukraine from J.Piekalkewicz "Die Deutsche Reichsbahn im Zweiten Weltkrieg".

He is again the top of the photo:
Pervomaisk.jpg
Bridge photo from J.Piekalkewicz book
Pervomaisk.jpg (20.77 KiB) Viewed 1455 times
Recently I came across more photos on ebay.
Now there is no doubt who built it and what's the second language used on the original photo!
General Gercke bridge 1.JPG
General Gercke bridge 1
General Gercke bridge 2.JPG
General Gercke bridge 2
General Gercke bridge 3.JPG
General Gercke bridge 3

GregSingh
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Re: German Railways in the East

#519

Post by GregSingh » 10 Dec 2015, 02:00

In the second half of 1942 Donetsk Basin industry and Krasnodar oilfields were firmly in German hands. 1st Panzer Army was not far from Grozny and Baku oilfields seem to be reached soon.
However coal and iron ore output was nowhere near full capacity because of serious damage to infrastructure, Technische Brigade Mineralöl reported from Krasnodar that it needed at least 6 month to get any oil flowing out, it was still near 500km from Grozny to Baku but German advance stopped just north of Grozny, short of oilfields there...

Nevertheless plans were made to bring all of those resources back to Germany on a grand scale.
A wide gauged train network (3000 mm) was planned with colossal locomotives and wagons.
At that time Soviet largest tank wagon had tank capacity of 50 cubic meters. Reichsbahn planned a 300 cubic meters one.
Largest Soviet open wagon had 60 tons load, Reichsbahn planned a 320 tons one.
s1.jpg
Soviet 50m3 tank wagon
r1.jpg
Planned Reichsbahn 300m3 tank wagon
s2.jpg
Soviet 60t open wagon
r2.jpg
Planned Reichsbahn 320t open wagon
Previous short discussion on this forum and sources: Wide Gauge Railway

GregSingh
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Re: German Railways in the East

#520

Post by GregSingh » 13 Dec 2015, 08:22

Several models of locomotives were proposed, here is freight locomotive from Siemens, plans dated Feb.43 with Apr.43 revisions.
Siemens 1943.jpg
Siemens 1943 freight locomotive

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Re: German Railways in the East

#521

Post by GregSingh » 23 Dec 2015, 11:10

What's even more interesting, there were plans for a container wagons to speed up loading/unloading process.
Behälterwagen.jpg
Behälterwagen - Dec 1942

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Re: German Railways in the East

#522

Post by GregSingh » 23 Dec 2015, 11:24

And here is how a transloading station would have looked like...
Umschlagbahnhof.jpg
Umschlagbahnhof

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: German Railways in the East

#523

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 25 Jan 2016, 12:21

Site with quite a lot of interesting Soviet wartime material about railways. GKO orders, Party Resolutions and other documents.

Not just Soviet wera though, there is a lot of early railway stuff from 1870s onwards, 1914 guides, etc. Also post war m,aterial about construction of BAM for instance.

As an example there is this guide of 1903 to Russian Railway wagons
http://rr.aroundspb.ru/1903_Vagony_russkih_zd.pdf

1936 Railway Atlas
http://rr.aroundspb.ru/1936_Obshhesetevaja_shema.pdf

Official Index of railway, steamship and other passenger services 1935

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stg 44
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Question for the rail experts

#524

Post by stg 44 » 04 Feb 2016, 17:04

We know that German rail gauge conversion lagged badly during Barbarossa, but if instead of going after Leningrad it was just screened while rail conversion assets were used to speed the construction of rail support to Moscow could the rail supply lines have been in place to launch Operation Typhoon earlier than October?

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Re: German Railways in the East

#525

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Feb 2016, 18:58

I am not sure that this view is necessarily correct.

The German railway plan for the invasion envisaged changing the gauge of 1 double tracked railway line for each Heerengruppe to supply 24 trains a day to reach the Supply District for that Group. So after the initial advance of 300km, a Supply District would be set up and supplied by standard gauge railway. This would support the next leap forward supported by the Grosstransportraum lorries operating over the next 300km. At 600km, ie. Smolensk, they could have set up another Supply District and linked that by rail and added additional capacity to the first Supply District. To do this for three Heerengruppe means you have to change the gauge of 1800km of track.

Halders Diary states that EBP changed gauge at 20km per day per Regiment and they had 6 Regiments in Russia plus a host of independent companies. So to link the first Supply District takes 300km / 20km = 15 days and you can link the second one in 30 days. This rate of advance is supported by von Borks table for HG Nord which shows the first train arriving at the railhead behind the HG within 7 days. So there is no real lag in changing the gauge.

The real problem is highlighted in Halders diary when he states that the EBP are too close behind the armies as they change gauge very quickly but do not build capacity which can only be done by adding signalling, locomotive sheds, water towers, coaling stations, repair shops and a regular chain of Bw's.

The second thing that pulls them off their primary mission is the failure to capture sufficient Soviet rolling stock which means that they cannot operate the Union gauge railway and have to convert it to Standard gauge. Even so this is not a huge task as conversion is largely finished by September. Remember the Confederate railways, some 20,000 miles long were converted in just 3 days. Instead they waste time converting long lengths of track without adding the necessary capacity.

The EBP fail in their primary mission because they think that the building of capacity is a task best suited to the FEDKos despite the fact that these are primarily an operating unit. Also the EBP steal most of the equipment of the FEDKos for their important 'military' tasks, leaving these experienced railwaymen without repair trains, heavy equipment or basic items such as pumps which would provide capacity.

In short, the 6 EBP Regt were a sufficiently large force to have delivered the target of one double tracked line behind each HG all the way to Moscow, Leningrad and Rostov if they had kept after their primary mission and built capacity in addition to changing the gauge. Instead of which they got side tracked by all sorts of other tasks. This would not have mattered if the FEDKo and RVD had been sufficiently well equipped both to build infrastructure as well as operate trains.

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