A curious German weapon

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Luftwaffe air units and general discussions on the Luftwaffe.
tonydp72
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 12 Apr 2016 18:38
Location: Minneapolis, MN

A curious German weapon

Post by tonydp72 » 17 Apr 2016 12:36

I share with you photos of one of the most curious designs of the Luftwaffe during World War II. I'm talking about Junkers Ju 287 and its unusual design. If it had entered into service and built in quantity would have changed the course of the war? What do you think? I found this website that provides information about this aircraft. Visit the link below, you will find it a lot of photos and a full report on this almost unknown aircraft. I hope you enjoy.


[Link removed]


Best Regards from Minneapolis,

Anthony

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14012
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 17 Apr 2016 14:47

tonydp72 wrote:I share with you photos of one of the most curious designs of the Luftwaffe during World War II. I'm talking about Junkers Ju 287 and its unusual design. If it had entered into service and built in quantity would have changed the course of the war? What do you think? I found this website that provides information about this aircraft. Visit the link below, you will find it a lot of photos and a full report on this almost unknown aircraft. I hope you enjoy.


[Link removed]


Best Regards from Minneapolis,

Anthony
I'm curious about the fact that you claim to be from Minnesota, but the country-specific TLD of Blogspot of the link you posted is from Brazil. More interestingly, the blog to which you link, which you claim to have 'found', is written in Portugese, and the posts are listed by Blogspot as being posted from Florianópolis, which matches the blog's name as well as the city of your IP address.

I wouldn't really have minded you advertising your own blog if it wasn't for the fact that you were dishonest about it.

User avatar
Christian Ankerstjerne
Forum Staff
Posts: 14012
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
Location: Denmark

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 17 Apr 2016 16:33

rianna wrote:Can you upload pictures here?
You can, as long as they're relevant to the topic.

thaddeus_c
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 22 Jan 2014 03:16

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by thaddeus_c » 17 Apr 2016 19:25

on the other hand ... it actually IS an interesting design.

my viewpoint the LW might have had better luck developing a small jet bomber force rather than try to field 1,000 Me 262s? at the very least they could have fulfilled a needed recon role?

User avatar
stg 44
Member
Posts: 3376
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 01:42
Location: illinois

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by stg 44 » 17 Apr 2016 22:30

thaddeus_c wrote:on the other hand ... it actually IS an interesting design.

my viewpoint the LW might have had better luck developing a small jet bomber force rather than try to field 1,000 Me 262s? at the very least they could have fulfilled a needed recon role?
You mean the Ar 234? That took even longer to get flying than the Me 262 and did recon. Both were necessary, but the jet bombers weren't really effective because the Germans didn't really have a decent training org for it by the time it was ready, they lost control of their airspace, and IIRC they didn't have an effective bomb sight for that level of speed. First they really needed an effective fighter to reclaim control of their airspace to have adequate production, but really that was impossible given the ability of the US to spam them with long range high performance escort fighters and strafe airfields at will. Once the US is in the war it is lost.

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003 05:16
Location: Canada

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Paul Lakowski » 18 Apr 2016 00:59

Not only that - any reclaiming of the airspace has to be in 1942-43 time period before the Americans get invested in the European War. That means two critical interlocking choices.

First they must focus training on a high-low concept saving the best pilots for the most critical missions. That means limiting training flying hours in most fields to ensure all new fighter pilots get at least 300 flying hours for the critical interceptor wings . The next obvious choice is early development of the Jumo-004A engine to get the Me 262 operational by 1942 for training and 1943 for battle.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 14 May 2016 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: correct is only Me 262 - not "ME-262"

thaddeus_c
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 22 Jan 2014 03:16

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by thaddeus_c » 18 Apr 2016 01:07

no, meant small in numbers was not meaning a particular design, they were not going to be able to field a large numbers of jets and IMO a recon/bomber would have been a better gamble.

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003 05:16
Location: Canada

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Paul Lakowski » 18 Apr 2016 04:41

Why would they not have been able to field a large number of jets?



If limited in jet numbers at least strengthen multi engineed bombers to attach a pair of jet engines to fuselage so top speed during attack could be well over 400mph- loaded at hi altitude. That way they can fly above enemy fighter AAA screens and spy on enemy.

If necessary they could put these bombers into shallow dive from VHI altitude building up speed to bomb target at 450mph.

thaddeus_c
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 22 Jan 2014 03:16

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by thaddeus_c » 14 May 2016 02:30

Paul Lakowski wrote:If limited in jet numbers at least strengthen multi engineed bombers to attach a pair of jet engines to fuselage so top speed during attack could be well over 400mph- loaded at hi altitude. That way they can fly above enemy fighter AAA screens and spy on enemy.

If necessary they could put these bombers into shallow dive from VHI altitude building up speed to bomb target at 450mph.
completely agree, they could have "clipped" small jets to a variety of aircraft to great benefit. guess the "perfect as enemy of good" attitude precluded that?

Heinkel had early small jets , not strong enough to power aircraft solely, possibly added to He 111? (they tested them under He 111)
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 14 May 2016 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: correct is only He 111 - not "HE-111"

User avatar
Cantankerous
Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: 01 Sep 2019 21:22
Location: Newport Coast

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Cantankerous » 27 Sep 2023 16:37

thaddeus_c wrote:
14 May 2016 02:30
Paul Lakowski wrote:If limited in jet numbers at least strengthen multi engineed bombers to attach a pair of jet engines to fuselage so top speed during attack could be well over 400mph- loaded at hi altitude. That way they can fly above enemy fighter AAA screens and spy on enemy.

If necessary they could put these bombers into shallow dive from VHI altitude building up speed to bomb target at 450mph.
completely agree, they could have "clipped" small jets to a variety of aircraft to great benefit. guess the "perfect as enemy of good" attitude precluded that?

Heinkel had early small jets , not strong enough to power aircraft solely, possibly added to He 111? (they tested them under He 111)
The Heinkel He 118 was used as a testbed for the Heinkel Hirth HeS 3 turbojet in 1938. The He 111 served as the testbed for the HeS 011 turbojet, which would have powered the Messerschmitt P.1101 and Focke-Wulf Ta 183.

Link:
https://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histo ... He-111.htm

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3528
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by T. A. Gardner » 27 Sep 2023 18:46

thaddeus_c wrote:
14 May 2016 02:30
Paul Lakowski wrote:If limited in jet numbers at least strengthen multi engineed bombers to attach a pair of jet engines to fuselage so top speed during attack could be well over 400mph- loaded at hi altitude. That way they can fly above enemy fighter AAA screens and spy on enemy.

If necessary they could put these bombers into shallow dive from VHI altitude building up speed to bomb target at 450mph.
completely agree, they could have "clipped" small jets to a variety of aircraft to great benefit. guess the "perfect as enemy of good" attitude precluded that?

Heinkel had early small jets , not strong enough to power aircraft solely, possibly added to He 111? (they tested them under He 111)
Until you run into problems with the bomber not being designed to handle those speeds. I don't know what a He 111's Mach limit is for compressibility to set in but it probably is somewhere around 400 mph. Then you have to think where would these engines go? Would they be attached where the current ETC external bomb racks are? If so, that would reduce the bombload considerably.

Adding small ramjets, jet engines, and rocket motors to aircraft from about 1944 to 1950 proved of only marginal value. In most cases, fighter speeds were raised on the order of 40 to 50 mph at the cost of greatly increased fuel consumption even when these engines weren't running due to their extra drag. Bombers saw less benefit. Putting 4 jet engines on a B-36 didn't raise the top speed much at all, but did help with the cruise speed.

ewest89
Member
Posts: 283
Joined: 04 Oct 2021 20:11
Location: United States

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by ewest89 » 27 Sep 2023 20:16

Regarding the Junkers Ju 287:

https://www.amazon.com/Junkers-Ju-287-G ... 190322392X

The Arado Ar 234 was an effective bomber and reconnaissance aircraft.

https://www.christian-schmidt.com/produ ... s_id=11361

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3528
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by T. A. Gardner » 28 Sep 2023 07:13

The Ju 287 was more an experiment in forward swept wings than a going bomber. It also wasn't the only thing flying with them at the time. The USAAF was experimenting with them on the Cornelius XFG-1.

Image

User avatar
Cantankerous
Member
Posts: 1277
Joined: 01 Sep 2019 21:22
Location: Newport Coast

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by Cantankerous » 28 Sep 2023 16:01

T. A. Gardner wrote:
28 Sep 2023 07:13
The Ju 287 was more an experiment in forward swept wings than a going bomber. It also wasn't the only thing flying with them at the time. The USAAF was experimenting with them on the Cornelius XFG-1.

Image
The first two Junkers Ju 287 prototypes were indeed intended as forward swept wing technology demonstrators (hence being called "flying mock-ups" in Junkers company documents) because development of the systems for the eventual Ju 287 design (which resembled a Ju 288 with jet power and forward swept wings) was going to take time to develop. Focke-Wulf had a project in late 1942 for a jet fighter with forward swept wings, and Heinkel investigated an HeS 011-powered He 162 with forward swept wings before the collapse of the Third Reich. The forward wing sweep design of the Cornelius XFG-1 fuel glider and XBG-3 bomb glider project were almost certainly conceived independently in the US because the Belyayev DB-LK prototype strategic bomber flown in the USSR in 1940 had wing with slightly forward sweep.

Link:
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwpi.html

thaddeus_c
Member
Posts: 813
Joined: 22 Jan 2014 03:16

Re: A curious German weapon

Post by thaddeus_c » 10 Oct 2023 16:20

T. A. Gardner wrote:
27 Sep 2023 18:46
thaddeus_c wrote:
14 May 2016 02:30
they could have "clipped" small jets to a variety of aircraft to great benefit. guess the "perfect as enemy of good" attitude precluded that?
Until you run into problems with the bomber not being designed to handle those speeds. I don't know what a He 111's Mach limit is for compressibility to set in but it probably is somewhere around 400 mph. Then you have to think where would these engines go? Would they be attached where the current ETC external bomb racks are? If so, that would reduce the bombload considerably.

Adding small ramjets, jet engines, and rocket motors to aircraft from about 1944 to 1950 proved of only marginal value. In most cases, fighter speeds were raised on the order of 40 to 50 mph at the cost of greatly increased fuel consumption even when these engines weren't running due to their extra drag. Bombers saw less benefit. Putting 4 jet engines on a B-36 didn't raise the top speed much at all, but did help with the cruise speed.
you are highlighting two contradictory issues, problems if the existing piston aircraft exceed 400mph and stating the addition of jets only adding 40-50mph?

actually my speculation (unclear, sorry) was for the "small" type of jets planned for the V-1, that would be self-contained, engine-fuel-munition or, as was done to extend the range of the V-1, reduce the munition.

Return to “Luftwaffe air units and Luftwaffe in general”