Bunkers with tank turrets!
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello Lars
It seems that they were to be used on the "wooden bunker" somewhere, right?
What does "Erftstellung" mean?
And it seems that there has been more, as the "planung des Jagdpantherrohre" was not finished.
Interesting document.
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
It seems that they were to be used on the "wooden bunker" somewhere, right?
What does "Erftstellung" mean?
And it seems that there has been more, as the "planung des Jagdpantherrohre" was not finished.
Interesting document.
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
The Erft is a sidestream of the Rhine in Germany.
It runs from Düsseldorf to the vicinity of Düren.
Not sure if this is the right place for the Erftstellung but it seems a sort of blockingline in case the Westwall was breached.
JK
It runs from Düsseldorf to the vicinity of Düren.
Not sure if this is the right place for the Erftstellung but it seems a sort of blockingline in case the Westwall was breached.
JK
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello Kurt
The information about the 25 Tiger II turrets in the document dated 25.02.1945 is rather strange, but there is no evidence that wooden bunkers were planned for this type of turrets anywhere.
The copy attached (NARA files) is from a map dated 18.01.1945. It says 25 8,8 cm Tiger II guns planned for the Bereich Fest. Pi. Kdtr. XXI. But those were just loose guns, not tank turrets.
It might seem that it is all a misunderstanding, because things were mixed up?
Greetings Lars
The information about the 25 Tiger II turrets in the document dated 25.02.1945 is rather strange, but there is no evidence that wooden bunkers were planned for this type of turrets anywhere.
The copy attached (NARA files) is from a map dated 18.01.1945. It says 25 8,8 cm Tiger II guns planned for the Bereich Fest. Pi. Kdtr. XXI. But those were just loose guns, not tank turrets.
It might seem that it is all a misunderstanding, because things were mixed up?
Greetings Lars
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
"Kw-Türme auf Tiger II" could imply that those are whole tanks. Maybe disabled tanks, that were still good enough as static defence?
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Yes TH, I have thought of that too. Then it would just be a strange coincidence, that both documents mention the same number of turrets and loose 8,8 cm guns.
But also strange, because disabled tanks were used frequently for static defence, and then this would be the first time that static tanks are mentioned in a Meldung über Waffen-Einbau, at least at the Western Front.
Greetings Lars
But also strange, because disabled tanks were used frequently for static defence, and then this would be the first time that static tanks are mentioned in a Meldung über Waffen-Einbau, at least at the Western Front.
Greetings Lars
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello TH and others,
According to Axel Turra’s book “Heeresversuchsstelle Hillersleben”, 43 Tiger II hulls were present at the Hillersleben proving grounds in April 1945 (see copy attached). A pretty big number. There is no further explanation for this. Maybe these hulls were damaged by air raids and thus unusable for their original purpose?
It makes some kind of sense, since Henschel’s assembly plants in Kassel were heavily damaged by air raids at the end of 1944, while the Tiger II turret production lines at Wegmann & Co. in the same city remained intact.
It is pure speculation, but I wonder if it might have been planned to install a number of intact Tiger II turrets on dug-in damaged hulls for fixed installation?? This may be another explanation for the “25 Stück 8,8 cm Kw.-Türme auf Tiger II” mentioned in the report dated 25.02.1945.
greetings Lars
According to Axel Turra’s book “Heeresversuchsstelle Hillersleben”, 43 Tiger II hulls were present at the Hillersleben proving grounds in April 1945 (see copy attached). A pretty big number. There is no further explanation for this. Maybe these hulls were damaged by air raids and thus unusable for their original purpose?
It makes some kind of sense, since Henschel’s assembly plants in Kassel were heavily damaged by air raids at the end of 1944, while the Tiger II turret production lines at Wegmann & Co. in the same city remained intact.
It is pure speculation, but I wonder if it might have been planned to install a number of intact Tiger II turrets on dug-in damaged hulls for fixed installation?? This may be another explanation for the “25 Stück 8,8 cm Kw.-Türme auf Tiger II” mentioned in the report dated 25.02.1945.
greetings Lars
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- Hillersleben_B.JPG (98.87 KiB) Viewed 3901 times
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello
Some photos of German panzerturrets (bunkers) on the south coast of France (Mediteranean) from a US report in 1944.
Source: NARA
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Some photos of German panzerturrets (bunkers) on the south coast of France (Mediteranean) from a US report in 1944.
Source: NARA
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Last edited by kstdk on 06 Jun 2016, 08:21, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hi Lars, that's a plausible theory.Lars Bertelsen wrote:According to Axel Turra’s book “Heeresversuchsstelle Hillersleben”, 43 Tiger II hulls were present at the Hillersleben proving grounds in April 1945 (see copy attached). A pretty big number. There is no further explanation for this. Maybe these hulls were damaged by air raids and thus unusable for their original purpose? [...]
Perhaps the required transport capacity and need for heavy machinery at the installation sites prevented the execution of the plan...
Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello,
although not attached to a bunker... I saw this Panzerturm laying in a private backyard in the Stp. Reichenau (KVA A3, St Idesbald, Belgium)
Perhaps it once stood in the Stp. Reichenau but it could also be one of Panzerturm which stood along the Belgian coastline prior to the German occupation.
(there was also a large metal ring with bolts attached to it which looked very 'bunker-related'... I guess it measured up to 1,5m across)
although not attached to a bunker... I saw this Panzerturm laying in a private backyard in the Stp. Reichenau (KVA A3, St Idesbald, Belgium)
Perhaps it once stood in the Stp. Reichenau but it could also be one of Panzerturm which stood along the Belgian coastline prior to the German occupation.
(there was also a large metal ring with bolts attached to it which looked very 'bunker-related'... I guess it measured up to 1,5m across)
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Definitely not Belgian APX-2B turret instaled before WWII.myt1prod wrote:Hello,
.. but it could also be one of Panzerturm which stood along the Belgian coastline prior to the German occupation.
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Photos of KTII turrets in Hillersleben being visited by US troops.Lars Bertelsen wrote:Hello TH and others,
According to Axel Turra’s book “Heeresversuchsstelle Hillersleben”, 43 Tiger II hulls were present at the Hillersleben proving grounds in April 1945 (see copy attached). A pretty big number. There is no further explanation for this. Maybe these hulls were damaged by air raids and thus unusable for their original purpose?
It makes some kind of sense, since Henschel’s assembly plants in Kassel were heavily damaged by air raids at the end of 1944, while the Tiger II turret production lines at Wegmann & Co. in the same city remained intact.
It is pure speculation, but I wonder if it might have been planned to install a number of intact Tiger II turrets on dug-in damaged hulls for fixed installation?? This may be another explanation for the “25 Stück 8,8 cm Kw.-Türme auf Tiger II” mentioned in the report dated 25.02.1945.
greetings Lars
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- KTII.JPG (109.07 KiB) Viewed 3400 times
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello Andrzej
Thanks for this photo, really interesting. At least 8 Tiger II hulls are visible on the picture, neatly stacked, but why were they sent to Hillersleben?
According to Axel Turra, the 43 Tiger II hulls at Hillersleben were to be used as shooting targets, but I think it sounds unlikely. But at least it may be clear, that they were no longer intended to be used for their original purpose.
Might it be possible that the 43 hulls were to be rebuilt for fixed installation (and to be fitted with factory-new Tiger II turrets)?? Just an idea, but may also sound unlikely.
An empty Tiger II hull would weigh about 25 tons (according to my calculation). As a comparation, the bottom section of the well-known Pantherturm-Stahlunterstand weighed about 18,5 tons.
Greetings Lars
Thanks for this photo, really interesting. At least 8 Tiger II hulls are visible on the picture, neatly stacked, but why were they sent to Hillersleben?
According to Axel Turra, the 43 Tiger II hulls at Hillersleben were to be used as shooting targets, but I think it sounds unlikely. But at least it may be clear, that they were no longer intended to be used for their original purpose.
Might it be possible that the 43 hulls were to be rebuilt for fixed installation (and to be fitted with factory-new Tiger II turrets)?? Just an idea, but may also sound unlikely.
An empty Tiger II hull would weigh about 25 tons (according to my calculation). As a comparation, the bottom section of the well-known Pantherturm-Stahlunterstand weighed about 18,5 tons.
Greetings Lars
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
Hello Lars,
hmm it looks like waste of money in hard war times but we must remember that tests are money consuming. 43 hulls sounds really seriously.
On this photo and others we can se mayby dozen in total. Rest could be stored on reall shooting range with tank hulls in other part of Tubpl Hillerlseben.
hmm it looks like waste of money in hard war times but we must remember that tests are money consuming. 43 hulls sounds really seriously.
On this photo and others we can se mayby dozen in total. Rest could be stored on reall shooting range with tank hulls in other part of Tubpl Hillerlseben.
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Re: Bunkers with tank turrets!
This action was taken today somewhere in Poland. FPzDT4808 armed with 3,7 cm gun.
Source: http://odkrywca.pl/ringstand,754632.html#754632
Source: http://odkrywca.pl/ringstand,754632.html#754632